[cmontheloknow]

centralparker, on Jul 7 2008, 22:26, said:

But if you choose to support a team in a national league then of course it's going to cost quite a bit of money to get to away games. You know that right from the start.

Which is one of the reasons that junior fans would be wary of their side joining a nationwide set-up. Most followers of junior outfits have a nearby senior alternative but have deliberately chosen to follow football on a local basis.

You're right - and I've heard one or two people supporters suggest if Lok ever went Senior they'd find another club.

We have a committee of 29 - apart from a few former 3rds fans, I'd say virtually everyone has a current 2nd team. And not just the gruesome twosome either.

[rockson]

Burnie_man, on Jul 7 2008, 11:48, said:

My own personal opinion is that the 3rd Division has to be part of a regionlised pyramid before you get a significant amount of Junior clubs interested.

Present Div 2 and 3 clubs grouped geographically:-

Cowdenbeath East Fife Raith

Alloa Stirling East Stirling Stenhousemuir

Ayr Stranraer Annan

Berwick

Albion Dumbarton Queens Park

Arbroath Brechin Forfar Montrose


How do you regionalise that?
Even adding in Div 1 clubs it's a mess.

Cowdenbeath East Fife Raith Dunfermline St Johnstone?

Alloa Stirling East Stirling Stenhousemuir

Ayr Stranraer Annan Queen of South

Berwick

Albion Dumbarton Queens Park Airdrie Utd Clyde Morton Partick Livingston

Arbroath Brechin Forfar Montrose Dundee

Elgin Peterhead Ross County

Quote

eg. the 3rd Division is divided into North and South divisions, with the existing clubs supplemented by those Junior/Senior non-league clubs who want to compete. Below that you have further regionalisation.

What clubs are going to come in?

Quote

How do the fans of Berwick, Albion Rovers, Montrose, Dumbarton etc feel about such an idea?

I doubt it would work

Quote

Are you happy with a national 3rd Division, or would you accept a regionalised 3rd Division if it meant a proper pyramid system being establised?

Happy with the national Div 3.

[centralparker]

People rabbit on about Scottish football being a closed shop but it's worth bearing in mind that we have 40 national league clubs in a country with less than 5 million people. England has 10 times our population so our band of 40 would equate to around 400 sides south of the border.

That's a pretty good cross-sectional representation, from the Old Firm giants to the small-town minnows. The Highland imbalance has also been rectified in recent years.

[cmontheloknow]

centralparker, on Jul 8 2008, 15:00, said:

People rabbit on about Scottish football being a closed shop but it's worth bearing in mind that we have 40 national league clubs in a country with less than 5 million people. England has 10 times our population so our band of 40 would equate to around 400 sides south of the border.

That's a pretty good cross-sectional representation, from the Old Firm giants to the small-town minnows. The Highland imbalance has also been rectified in recent years.

Yes we do have a lot of clubs playing nationally, but England is a much bigger country so the analogy doesn't totally work. The coverage of the 3 regional feeders, Northern Premier in particular, to the Conference North and South is a bigger area than that of the Scottish League.

England has (IMHO) around 226 clubs that play across greater distances than those of the SFL.

England has over 120 full-time teams. We have around 20-25.

[The Old Northerner]

Quote

England has 10 times our population so our band of 40 would equate to around 400 sides south of the border.

The FA administrate the top 11 tiers of the pyramid down south. Approx 1500 clubs. Below that the county associations run the leagues

[Burnie_man]

rockson, on Jul 8 2008, 00:15, said:

Present Div 2 and 3 clubs grouped geographically:-

Cowdenbeath East Fife Raith

Alloa Stirling East Stirling Stenhousemuir

Ayr Stranraer Annan

Berwick

Albion Dumbarton Queens Park

Arbroath Brechin Forfar Montrose


How do you regionalise that?
Even adding in Div 1 clubs it's a mess.

Cowdenbeath East Fife Raith Dunfermline St Johnstone?

Alloa Stirling East Stirling Stenhousemuir

Ayr Stranraer Annan Queen of South

Berwick

Albion Dumbarton Queens Park Airdrie Utd Clyde Morton Partick Livingston

Arbroath Brechin Forfar Montrose Dundee

Elgin Peterhead Ross County




What clubs are going to come in?



I doubt it would work



Happy with the national Div 3.

It's hardly going to be a "mess"

SFL3 North and South

The clubs north of Dundee are supplememented by Highland League clubs, the clubs south of Dundee are supplemented by Junior Superleague clubs (and a few EoSFL clubs).

So a SFL3 South would have the likes of Linlithgow Rose, Pollok, Auchinleck Talbot, Spartans, Clydebank, Petershill etc supplement those existing league clubs like Dumbarton, Albion Rovers, Stenny etc in a 16 team division.

In SFL3 North you would have the top Highland League clubs, plus perhaps Banks O'Dee from the Juniors supplementing the likes of Forfar Athletic, Montrose, Elgin and Arbroath.

That sort of system would, IMO, get the major Junior clubs round the table. A national conference division wont.

[cmontheloknow]

Burnie_man, on Jul 9 2008, 12:28, said:

A national conference division wont.

I don't think anyone (the SFA Pyramid Working Group apart) supports a non-league national division. No non-league clubs (that I've seen anyway) have suggested it's the way forward.

[NotSainteeSean]

http://en.wikipedia....l_league_system

There is 24 levels to the english football leagues

[The Old Northerner]

Quote

There is 24 levels to the english football leagues

That'll be the one of the Bristol city leagues (with 4 divisions making up level 21-24). From level 12 down, the leagues are administered on a county wide basis and there is a good deal of variation in the number of levels in each county.

[rockson]

Burnie_man, on Jul 9 2008, 12:28, said:

It's hardly going to be a "mess"

SFL3 North and South

The clubs north of Dundee are supplememented by Highland League clubs, the clubs south of Dundee are supplemented by Junior Superleague clubs (and a few EoSFL clubs).

So a SFL3 South would have the likes of Linlithgow Rose, Pollok, Auchinleck Talbot, Spartans, Clydebank, Petershill etc supplement those existing league clubs like Dumbarton, Albion Rovers, Stenny etc in a 16 team division.

In SFL3 North you would have the top Highland League clubs, plus perhaps Banks O'Dee from the Juniors supplementing the likes of Forfar Athletic, Montrose, Elgin and Arbroath.

That sort of system would, IMO, get the major Junior clubs round the table. A national conference division wont.

The "mess" referred only to regionalising the present SFL clubs which is what some posters have suggested.
Your SFL North and South requires more clubs in the SFL than at present. There were only five applicants this time. Would the juniors really go for this?
[OR (more likely) it removes the ten Div 3 clubs from the SFL.]
Under this system would the winners of North and South have to play off for promotion? Or both sets of champions get promoted? Div 2 clubs won't like that.
And what about ground specs etc.? Present SFL legal requirements are more stringent than those for clubs outside.

[Burnie_man]

rockson, on Jul 10 2008, 00:09, said:

The "mess" referred only to regionalising the present SFL clubs which is what some posters have suggested.
Your SFL North and South requires more clubs in the SFL than at present. There were only five applicants this time. Would the juniors really go for this?
[OR (more likely) it removes the ten Div 3 clubs from the SFL.]
Under this system would the winners of North and South have to play off for promotion? Or both sets of champions get promoted? Div 2 clubs won't like that.
And what about ground specs etc.? Present SFL legal requirements are more stringent than those for clubs outside.

It raises a lot of questions and a number of issues would need to be addressed but yes, I think it would be attractive to many Junior clubs, both regional winners would be promoted, ground standards would need to be looked at......but we have to start somewhere.

[cmontheloknow]

SpartansNo9, on Jul 13 2008, 00:07, said:

I disagree. The EoS IS a viable option for most clubs.

Where could Dumbarton play if they were relegated? The East of Scotland League.

Where could Albion Rovers play? The East of Scotland League.

Shire? The East of Scotland League.

Forfar? The East of Scotland League.

The question really is why could any of these clubs not play in the East of Scotland League.

Now that Gretna 2008 and Stirling University have joined, the EoS covers a vast area of Scotland. It's 127 miles from Gretna to Stirling; 129 miles from Stirling to Dalbeattie; 112 miles from Stirling to Eyemouth; 113 miles from Eyemouth to Dalbeattie; 109 miles from Hawick to Stirling; 50 miles from Edinburgh to Hawick; 88 miles from Dalbeattie to Edinburgh.... need I go on.

It if the SFL clubs who are determined to maintain a national league; they don't want regionalisation. In that case, what is the problem with travelling to Edinburgh, the Borders, Stilring, Gretna or Dalbeattie?

If Montrose, Forfar, Brechin or Elgin were to go down and opt for the Highland Leeague instead - fine. No probs. But the EoS door would always be open to them. There is a will among the current EoS clubs. So I don't buy the SFL argument that they they don't want a pyramid system because there's nowhere for their bottom team to go. It's rubbish. The Highland League and East of Scotland League are there. That's where Shire/Albion/Elgin/Annan would go. And if they're good enough to win it, they could go back up.

Four EoS clubs applied to join the SFL and others, like Whitehill, Gala and Hawick, have done in the past. Dalbeattie also showed an interest a few weeks ago.

This means there is an appetite among the EoS clubs for a promotion/relegation system.

you SERIOUSLY expect a club like Dumbarton to go and play in a pseudo public park league, at venues that don't even charge admission? It's not necessarily the cost issue, more the fact it's a largely amateur league where gates struggle to be above 30 at some venues. It would be an absolute joke if clubs like Easthouses Lily were the level below the 3rd Division.

If the East of Scotland League was serious about driving up standards, I could possibly agree with you - but seeing as two more teams that play on playing fields have come in this summer, it would seem that is not the case.

This post has been edited by cmontheloknow: 13 July 2008 - 08:47

[cmontheloknow]

SpartansNo9, on Jul 13 2008, 16:38, said:

YES

And, finally, there's no point in the SFL's relegated team joining the juniors, because the juniors are not interested in linking up with the SFL. There needs to be a willingness on both sides.

Well that's an irrelevant point because there are Junior clubs with SFL aspirations. Are you telling me that 100% of the E)S want to join the Scottish League? I'd be surprised if there was more than 5 or 6 clubs interested.

[rockson]

SpartansNo9, on Jul 13 2008, 00:07, said:

I disagree. The EoS IS a viable option for most clubs.

Where could Dumbarton play if they were relegated? The East of Scotland League.

Where could Albion Rovers play? The East of Scotland League.

Shire? The East of Scotland League.

If Dumbarton or Albion Rovers or Queen's Park, say, were to be relegated to the EoSL it would surely have to change its name as it would then be more or less a national Div 4 - even more true if the likes of Forfar or Cowdenbeath were added.
It would also be the death of these clubs as, though at first they might possibly bring (relatively) largish away supports with them, they would certainly attract smaller home crowds than they do already if they failed to regain SFL status pretty much straight away.
There seem to be some people actively wishing this sort of outcome. Personally I don't wish to see the death of any club.
(Please don't forget the history. Queen's Park in particular would be a dreadful loss to the Scottish game and Dumbarton, remember, were the first outright winners of the Scottish League.)
The above might not be the case if the juniors became integrated into a pyramid system but then the juniors, as juniors, would have ceased to exist separately. Will turkeys collaborate with Christmas?

[BerwickMad]

Burnie_man, on Jul 9 2008, 12:28, said:

It's hardly going to be a "mess"

SFL3 North and South

The clubs north of Dundee are supplememented by Highland League clubs, the clubs south of Dundee are supplemented by Junior Superleague clubs (and a few EoSFL clubs).

So a SFL3 South would have the likes of Linlithgow Rose, Pollok, Auchinleck Talbot, Spartans, Clydebank, Petershill etc supplement those existing league clubs like Dumbarton, Albion Rovers, Stenny etc in a 16 team division.

In SFL3 North you would have the top Highland League clubs, plus perhaps Banks O'Dee from the Juniors supplementing the likes of Forfar Athletic, Montrose, Elgin and Arbroath.

That sort of system would, IMO, get the major Junior clubs round the table. A national conference division wont.

The problem with that is that the north section would cover a population of well less than a million, and the south section would cover over 4 million. I think it would be best to split it 3 ways.

[cmontheloknow]

SpartansNo9, on Jul 14 2008, 02:51, said:

Like who? Clydebank maybe, no-one else has ever shown any interest. If we could get the juniors to show some interest it would be fantastic. Then we could seriously talk about using the Superleagues, because they have stronger teams than the EoS. But they're not interested. Linlithgow's ground is every bit as good as Annan's and better than Preston and Cove. Newetongrange Star's ground wouldn't need much work, and there are probably a few more. But they are not interested. So my point is relevant.

The Pyramid Working Group wrote to all non-league clubs recently to ask them "Does your club have aspirations of playing in the Scottish League?" They received a number of YES replies from Junior clubs. I know of four or five that did so, and that's just the clubs I know about. The issue has nothing to do with the Gretna vacancy and was a very strange question. Your entire argument is based on that fact that none applied for the vacancy.

So Linlithgow and Newtongrange, 2 of the 5 or 6 Junior sides with a ground halfway good enough for the SFL, are not interested? Does that mean every one of the other 160 or so aren't?

I know what my own club's views are on a pyramid. We've spoken on the record about it a number of times in the recent past.

It's incredibly lazy to paint the SJFA as one - it's a vast organisation with a huge gulf from the biggest to the smallest, and sometimes the most ambitious and forward-thinking clubs are to be found among the smaller ones. There is not one united opinion.

This post has been edited by cmontheloknow: 14 July 2008 - 07:37

[cmontheloknow]

SpartansNo9, on Jul 14 2008, 13:35, said:

Who are the four or five? And if they do have serious aspirations for the SFL why have they (i) never declared their interest publically (ii) never applied for the vacancies in 2008, 2002, 2000, 1994 etc etc (iii) not asked for an application pack this summer (like Clydebank did) to see what it involves?

It's all very well 4 or 5 clubs replying to a letter to say, 'yes', it's another mattter entirely going through the application process; doing all the paperwork, preparing a budget, finding out about ground improvements. It's a huge job; and no junior club in recent memory has ever done it. With the exception of Gretna, they are always Highland and EoS/SoS clubs. (I believe Dalbeattie, Clydebank and Third Lanark ams asked for application packs this time around)

You may think it's lazy to tar all junior clubs with the same brush, and you may be right to some extent, but the underlying truth is there in black and white. Junior clubs have very little appetite for the SFL. To suggest otherwise is nonsense.

Let's take Preston Athletic. They are one of the few junior clubs did something about it by quitting the juniors, joining the EoS and applying for the SFL twice. No-one else has acted on their aspirations like that. And if Preston can can get that far, then the bigger junior clubs could so even quicker.

My point is that the EoS Premier had four applicant clubs out of 12 (Dalbeattie asked for an application form, and Whitehill, Gala and Hawick have all applied before). That makes it a league which has the potantial to create a proper link with the SFL becuase there are clubs who really do want to join the SFL. It simply is not the case in the junior leagues.

If 4 Linlithgow, Newtongrange, Carnoustie and Bathgate, for example, had applied or at least asked for an application form and showed a bit of interest, then the East Superleague and the EoS would be viable options for the relegated SFL3 team, and could discuss merging. But it's not realistic.

One thing must be accepted. The SFL clubs are not in favour of regionalising, so there's no point in pushing that agenda. It won't work. What we need are viable leagues under the SFL that contains clubs who have genuine ambitions to play in the SFL; leagues that could accommodate a relegated SFL3 club, and provide an opportunity for the champions to get promoted.

Those leagues are already there: the HL and the EoS.

I am no longer going to discuss this issue with you. There are so many holes in your argument it would take me all afternoon and I, for once, have a few more important things to do.

[scrooge1928]

cmontheloknow, on Jul 14 2008, 08:36, said:

It's incredibly lazy to paint the SJFA as one - it's a vast organisation with a huge gulf from the biggest to the smallest, and sometimes the most ambitious and forward-thinking clubs are to be found among the smaller ones. There is not one united opinion.

Of course there is not one united opinion. I've thought all along that just because junior clubs A and B say "we're not interested", it doesn't mean that clubs C to Z feel the same way. I believe that Whitburn refused a place in the East Superleague and then had to work their way back up.

The problem has been that some papers have taken the views of one or two junior clubs, and presented them as the unanimous opinion of juniordom. In our league, if Spartans or Welfare or City got on a soapbox and said "This is what East senior football thinks", the board would be swimming in GTF replies within minutes. The juniors didn't do that, and we have to guess that either a) they agree with the Roses and Polloks or b ) they are hanging together to get the best deal. Alternative c), that the big junior clubs get bootlicked the way Celtic and Rangers do, is too ludicrous for anyone who has ever met a junior committee member to think about. I tend towards option d) - that the SFA ground rules are so extreme that they discourage anyone who doesn't already have an almost-SFL-ready ground, and that the ambitious but not-so-big clubs are keeping quiet and biding their time.

A pyramid is (in my own opinion, not necessarily that of the club I follow) a non-starter without the juniors - for playing standards - and especially the West juniors, for additional geographical reasons.

I doubt the SFA ground regulations were ever the subject of a vote. I would like to see the pro-pyramid clubs who are full members of the SFA press for amendments to the rules to set up a new ground grading committee. Once junior clubs, and obvious senior anomalies such as Lothian Thistle, can be sure that they can progress up a pyramid without having to pray for a Russian tycoon or a lottery win, we might start seeing some progress towards a genuinely merit-based system.