[xbl]

We've had a number of threads suggesting independence, with some people for against. To ask a different question though, who would vote for a return to Westminster control in a hypothetical future of the nation referendum?

We've had a couple people saying that the parliment is a waste of money and should be abolished, what are their arguments to say that we would be better under Westminster control? If I recall correctly(might be wrong though), HB and Burgundy have both argued that the Parliment is a waste and should be abolished, and as they are the first to demand financial plans and projections for independence, what is the evidence that supports Westminster rule as the way forward?

Alternatively, having seen the country stagnate horribly over the last few decades, with the Parliment slowly starting to clean up the mess of decades of misrule, would a return to Westminster mean a return to the bad old days?

Note, lets try and keep off the independence question, Im adding a simplified poll juast to guage public opinion.

[Thundermonkey]

xbl, on Mar 31 2008, 10:04, said:

If I recall correctly(might be wrong though), HB and Burgundy have both argued that the Parliment is a waste and should be abolished, and as they are the first to demand financial plans and projections for independence, what is the evidence that supports Westminster rule as the way forward?

Surely it's polite to provide an answer to the original question first? Answering questions with questions suggests there are no reasonable answers in the first case?

Why does it have to be independence or Westminster rule? Are we that backwards a nation that we can't in time run the parliment efficiently alongside Westminster?

Null vote for me because it's a stupidly flawed proposition.

[xbl]

Thundermonkey, on Mar 31 2008, 11:54, said:

Why does it have to be independence or Westminster rule? Are we that backwards a nation that we can't in time run the parliment efficiently alongside Westminster?

Null vote for me because it's a stupidly flawed proposition.

I agree that its a strange idea, but it is one that some people have said they are in favour of. Since we have had arguments for and against independence, and one of the demands made of a referendum is that it is a simple yes-no question, I thought I would frame it slightly differently.

So far, we have 6 in favour of a return to Westminster, and 5 against. Im one of the against voters, but it would be nice to hear from someone who would like to see the Parliment scrapped. It would give us an alternative viewpoint!

[Whistle Blower]

If we scrap the scottish exec will we have to give MSP's redundancy ?

[Savage Henry]

Ron Burgundy, on Mar 31 2008, 12:42, said:

we are paying MSP's to basically act as civil servants which is ridciculous....like the civil service they are geting a budget to spend on certain things and they have leeway to administer this to a certain extent.

They are making a mockery of us and it's no wonder they want the status quo to remain no matter if they are winning or losing because otherwise they would have to fight to get to westminster whereas any old muppet that can spell devolution has a shot at it here.

I also see that Colin Fox dick is now allying the SSP to the independence cause in a big way...nothing like catching that wave and getting a free ride.

To be more precise, we are paying failed social workers to pretend to be competent members of the civil service, which may possibly be a contradiction in terms.

And although Colin Fox may be catching a free ride, it's more of a ripple than a wave, I would suggest.

[centralparker]

The Scottish Parliament, introduced at the behest of the Labour Party, has transformed the SNP from an insignificant (in terms of Westminster seats) bunch of rabble rousers to the loudest political voice and fastest-growing party in the country.

So keep Holyrood I say.

[sonofjenova]

Ron Burgundy, on Mar 31 2008, 12:42, said:

I also see that Colin Fox dick is now allying the SSP to the independence cause in a big way...nothing like catching that wave and getting a free ride.

Colin Fox allying himself and his party to independence is akin to Jim McInally allying his East Stirling team to the "Football against Racism" campaign.

[xbl]

Jim Pansy, on Mar 31 2008, 12:47, said:

To be more precise, we are paying failed social workers to pretend to be competent members of the civil service, which may possibly be a contradiction in terms.

So do you want the Parliment scrapped and all power returned to Westminster? Do you think that Westminster did a good job for Scotland over the last few decades?

In my opinion, the Parliment is just beginning to sort out the mess that decades of mismanagement left us in. So they might not be the best and most talented parlimentarians, but they were voted in by the people, and I think things are slowly improving in Scotland.

[centralparker]

Ron Burgundy, on Mar 31 2008, 12:56, said:

i'm not so sure I commeneted on it before the Italy mtch that the succeess of our football team was having an incredible effect on the psyche of some of our less cognitally able residents which seemed to make them think that success on a football park could somehow be adequately transferred to the running of a modern nation.

It's no secret that the fortunes of the SNP are linked to the performance of the national football time. When we qualified for our first modern World Cup in 1974 and just failed to go through after a hard-fought draw with the mighty Brazil, the SNP reached the dizzying heights of 11 seats in Westminster, a figure they have come nowhere near reaching since. If wee Billy hadn't missed from a yard, this number could have been greater.

And if Ally's Tartan Army had returned from Argentina laden with the spoils of war, the notion of independnce would have been carried by a landlside.

[Thundermonkey]

centralparker, on Mar 31 2008, 12:03, said:

It's no secret that the fortunes of the SNP are linked to the performance of the national football time. When we qualified for our first modern World Cup in 1974 and just failed to go through after a hard-fought draw with the mighty Brazil, the SNP reached the dizzying heights of 11 seats in Westminster, a figure they have come nowhere near reaching since. If wee Billy hadn't missed from a yard, this number could have been greater.

And if Ally's Tartan Army had returned from Argentina laden with the spoils of war, the notion of independnce would have been carried by a landlside.

All of which indicates that SNP voters are mindless fuckers...or drunks.

What a dreadfully damaging admission from a pro-independence supporter

This post has been edited by Thundermonkey: 31 March 2008 - 12:08

[Savage Henry]

xbl, on Mar 31 2008, 12:57, said:

So do you want the Parliment scrapped and all power returned to Westminster? Do you think that Westminster did a good job for Scotland over the last few decades?

In my opinion, the Parliment is just beginning to sort out the mess that decades of mismanagement left us in. So they might not be the best and most talented parlimentarians, but they were voted in by the people, and I think things are slowly improving in Scotland.

Such a parcel of rogues in a nation. Burns may have been a rotten poet, but he certainly had a point there. I would happily see our pretendy wee parliament written off as a failed experiment, but frankly there's no chance of that ever happening, due to the fact that the taxpayer has been damned near bankrupted through building that monstrosity in Edinburgh. My personal preference, given the state in which we find ourselves, is to throw the whole hog at Europe and a fully federal European system under a single umbrella parliament. That seems to be the least worst option.

[Piehutt]

A return to Westminster rule would be a total disaster for Scotland.

The Scottish Parliament has shown itself as a success by contributing many attractive policies, so much so that people from south of the border would be happy to be included in the Scottish system.

Westminster treats Scotland as an afterthought, even Labour who gains a substantial part of their Parliamentary majority from Scottish seats have shown themselves not to care too much. One minister (Hewitt) couldn't even name the Labour First Minister last year!!

The administration costs of democracy should not be considered when provinding a system fit for purpose. If you cared about the costs, why bother with having a referrendum in the 1st place?

[djn]

Jim Pansy, on Mar 31 2008, 13:12, said:

My personal preference, given the state in which we find ourselves, is to throw the whole hog at Europe and a fully federal European system under a single umbrella parliament. That seems to be the least worst option.

I'd be happy with that

[xbl]

Jim Pansy, on Mar 31 2008, 13:12, said:

My personal preference, given the state in which we find ourselves, is to throw the whole hog at Europe and a fully federal European system under a single umbrella parliament. That seems to be the least worst option.

Oh yes, that would be great! And surely you would prefer to do that as Scotland within Europe, rather than Scotland within Britain, within Europe. But thats getting off the topic of this thread. There does seem to be quite a large number of people who would prefer to see the Parliment scrapped, which surprises me to be honest!

[qos_75]

Piehutt, on Mar 31 2008, 13:22, said:

A return to Westminster rule would be a total disaster for Scotland.

The Scottish Parliament has shown itself as a success by contributing many attractive policies, so much so that people from south of the border would be happy to be included in the Scottish system.

Westminster treats Scotland as an afterthought, even Labour who gains a substantial part of their Parliamentary majority from Scottish seats have shown themselves not to care too much. One minister (Hewitt) couldn't even name the Labour First Minister last year!!

The administration costs of democracy should not be considered when provinding a system fit for purpose. If you cared about the costs, why bother with having a referrendum in the 1st place?

Headline grabbing policies that have not always worked out they way they were supposed to. Free healthcare for the elderly, scrapping road bridge tolls and free University education, whilst great ideas do not mean the parliament has been an overwhelming success. Indeed, I am sure the cost of funding free healthcare for the elderly is facing a 63 million shortfall.

Erm,I think the cost of carrying out your policies and the cost of running a parliament should be a consideration, how are we going to fund them if we can't afford them?

[Alibi]

Strange that the loudest voice against Holyrood is from Airdrie. Wow, that's a surprise. Not.

[caleycasual]

centralparker, on Mar 31 2008, 12:03, said:

It's no secret that the fortunes of the SNP are linked to the performance of the national football time. When we qualified for our first modern World Cup in 1974 and just failed to go through after a hard-fought draw with the mighty Brazil, the SNP reached the dizzying heights of 11 seats in Westminster, a figure they have come nowhere near reaching since. If wee Billy hadn't missed from a yard, this number could have been greater.

And if Ally's Tartan Army had returned from Argentina laden with the spoils of war, the notion of independnce would have been carried by a landlside.

Nah this time it's just those wee kiddies that grew up watching Braveheart have finally reached voting age.

[Thundermonkey]

I'm exactly £1.50 better off due to the scrapping of the Forth Road Bridge poll.

Better change my mind and vote SNP. At least until the black gold runs dry

[centralparker]

Thundermonkey, on Mar 31 2008, 13:08, said:

All of which indicates that SNP voters are mindless fuckers...or drunks.

What a dreadfully damaging admission from a pro-independence supporter

Scotland doesn't exist on the international political map but a historical quirk allows us to have our own identity on the world football stage. Therefore it's only natural that passions are aroused by the performance of our team, it's one of our few chances to show people that we can be a nation. Fitba is also our national sport by a long chalk and is bound up with the modern Scottish psyche.

Never underestimate the feel-good factor among the masses. Maggie Thatcher was all set to be bombed out in the early 80s but won the public round by securing victory in the Falklands War. Not that I'm trying to equate this conflict with a World Cup run, but the underlying principle is the same. Give people hope and a sense of belonging and they will vote for you.

This post has been edited by centralparker: 31 March 2008 - 14:09