[man in the know]

Looking at the calibre of third division teams it struck me that the same teams seem to struggle year after year . Why is this. Is it a lack of direction from the board or are the board out of touch with reality.

[ray_of_licht]

For a man in the know you have a surprising amount of questions.

[fifepup]

man in the know, on Mar 3 2008, 22:33, said:

Looking at the calibre of third division teams it struck me that the same teams seem to struggle year after year . Why is this. Is it a lack of direction from the board or are the board out of touch with reality.

"man in the know", eh?

[fifepup]

Beat me to it ray

[Good Ship Albion]

The SFA need to get the finger out and freshen things up. I've seen Highland League and junior games recently that are as good standard as the 2nd division, let alone the 3rd. At least they seem to be waking from their slumber with the threat to East Stirling if they finsish bottom again this season. But there needs to be more incentive for some of those 3rd division clubs to get their arse in gear. A good start would be one up one down, with the winner from a 2-legged play-off featuring the winners of the Highland League and South of Scotland League entering the league.

[cdsmith15]

Good Ship Albion, on Mar 3 2008, 22:40, said:

The SFA need to get the finger out and freshen things up. I've seen Highland League and junior games recently that are as good standard as the 2nd division, let alone the 3rd. At least they seem to be waking from their slumber with the threat to East Stirling if they finsish bottom again this season. But there needs to be more incentive for some of those 3rd division clubs to get their arse in gear. A good start would be one up one down, with the winner from a 2-legged play-off featuring the winners of the Highland League and South of Scotland League entering the league.

I agree with Good Ship Albion. This would help 'freshen' things up. Currently 3rd Division teams don't have to worry about the spectre of relegation.

[Clayhole Blue]

man in the know, on Mar 3 2008, 22:33, said:

Looking at the calibre of third division teams it struck me that the same teams seem to struggle year after year . Why is this. Is it a lack of direction from the board or are the board out of touch with reality.

Going back to the title of the thread rather than your apparently unrelated post, if the third division isn't viable why, elsewhere on these boards, are you so keen for other clubs to join an unviable league?

[Cowden til i die]

Good Ship Albion, on Mar 3 2008, 22:40, said:

The SFA need to get the finger out and freshen things up. I've seen Highland League and junior games recently that are as good standard as the 2nd division, let alone the 3rd. At least they seem to be waking from their slumber with the threat to East Stirling if they finsish bottom again this season. But there needs to be more incentive for some of those 3rd division clubs to get their arse in gear. A good start would be one up one down, with the winner from a 2-legged play-off featuring the winners of the Highland League and South of Scotland League entering the league.

The problem with that is some of these teams wouldnt want to join the league or wouldnt have a stadium suitable enough to join the SFL

[fifepup]

Man in the Know = Good Ship Albion

[Good Ship Albion]

stuartjb, on Mar 3 2008, 22:57, said:

mackin's gone and spencer fearn has taken over injecting 40 grand plus a year into the shire's coffers.if that's not getting "our arse in gear" then i don't know what is.

does that answer your question "man clearly not in the know".

Aye I'll give you that, I know you guys are still struggling at the bottom but you've come a long way since that 2003/04 season when you were breaking all sorts of records. I seem to remember some bookies even making noises about taking East Stirling off their coupons during that season. All the best for the rest of the season.

[HibeeJibee]

We need a pyramid system of 3 regions, uniting senior and junior non-leaguers, to increase the competitiveness of the Third Division; to get rid of the layabouts; + to increase peoples interest.

See EOS and SOS sub-forums (down below the Tartan Army...) for an interesting development.

Put simply, most clubs in the Third Division have nothing to play for, and happily finish at bottom.

HOWEVER, there is no doubt that Scotland should be capable of a nationwide league of 40+ clubs.

[Good Ship Albion]

HibeeJibee, on Mar 4 2008, 18:04, said:

HOWEVER, there is no doubt that Scotland should be capable of a nationwide league of 40+ clubs.

Totally disagree. There are too many clubs for a population the size of Scotland's to support. In the past 10 years we have seen a few go to the wall, only to be replaced by others who themselves went to the brink of non-existence (Livingston, Gretna). In the next 10 years more will go to the wall, no doubt about it. My own club are by no means safe.

[Robbo]

Spot on GSA

[mid-table]

I agree too. Look at the population, and the top-heavy nature of the game in Scotland, there shouldn't be any more than about 28 teams in the Scottish League. The problem is that I don't want any teams to lose their league status because of this, so it's a catch 22 situation. In order to improve the game you have to destroy the status of a large chunk of clubs.

[Trump]

There should be 3 divisions with 16 teams in them, playing each other home and away twice.. meaning obviously 48.
With 42 teams at the moment, 6 could be added to the 3rd tear, perhaps teams like Spartans, who have performed well in cups, or league champions of Highlands, EOS, SOS leagues?
Then there to be a similar to England Conference style, with 16 teams in that, from all over the country.
Not a well thought plan, but would make the game more interesting.

[mid-table]

How on earth will adding another 6 clubs to a saturated league, where most of the clubs make a loss and 16 of the teams can't average more than 700 people in their ground, improve things? Look at the below, average attendances for this season, like it or not people are not interested in their home town's football club, I don't like it either but look at the below, this can't continue.

Rank Team Average
1 Celtic 57025
2 Rangers 45850
3 Heart of Midlothian 16130
4 Hibernian 14365
5 Aberdeen 12384
6 Dundee United 8204
7 Kilmarnock 6459
8 Motherwell 5832
9 Falkirk 5726
10 Inverness C T 4985
11 St Mirren 4652
12 Dundee 4084
13 St Johnstone 3188
14 Dunfermline Athletic 2986
15 Morton 2727
16 Partick Thistle 2691
17 Gretna 2674
18 Ross County 2206
19 Hamilton Academical 2101
20 Queen of the South 2016
21 Livingston 2010
22 Raith Rovers 1824
23 Stirling Albion 1321
24 Clyde 1314
25 Ayr United 1133
26 Airdrie United 1071
27 Queens Park 696
28 Peterhead 691
29 East Fife 650
30 Montrose 633
31 Alloa Athletic 630
32 Arbroath 615
33 Cowdenbeath 579
34 Dumbarton 554
35 Berwick Rangers 521
36 Albion Rovers 515
37 Brechin City 508
38 Elgin City 447
39 Stenhousemuir 425
40 Forfar Athletic 395
41 East Stirlingshire 349
42 Stranraer 306

[GoTeamGaz]

mid-table, on Mar 4 2008, 19:57, said:

How on earth will adding another 6 clubs to a saturated league, where most of the clubs make a loss and 16 of the teams can't average more than 700 people in their ground, improve things? Look at the below, average attendances for this season, like it or not people are not interested in their home town's football club, I don't like it either but look at the below, this can't continue.

Rank Team Average

34 Dumbarton 554

what season is that from?

[port-ton]

what about if a team with hundreds of years of history who are either relegated from the 2nd or are usually near the top of the 3rd but have one bad season and finish bottom and get relegated, would clubs the size of most 2nd and 3rd division clubs be able to survive being a non-league team?.

as much as id love to see competition at the bottom of the 3rd id be even sadder to see a team ive grown up seeing going down the drains.

[mid-table]

GoTeamGaz, on Mar 4 2008, 22:48, said:

what season is that from?

This season

[fifepup]

Scotland can and does sustain 42 league clubs.

Reducing the number of clubs, wont benefit the ones who are left one bit.
Not in my lifetime.
If East Fife were forced out of business, I wouldn't go and watch anyone else.
If they were forced out of the league, I wouldn't start following a league club.
You people haver some pish.

All this hand wringing "we've got too many clubs, we've got too many clubs"
The SPL attendances are shite as well. Not just the lower leagues.
Why not have just 6 clubs if you think attendances are "the be all and end all"?

[Boghead Ben]

HibeeJibee, on Mar 4 2008, 18:04, said:

We need a pyramid system of 3 regions, uniting senior and junior non-leaguers, to increase the competitiveness of the Third Division; to get rid of the layabouts; + to increase peoples interest.

See EOS and SOS sub-forums (down below the Tartan Army...) for an interesting development.

Put simply, most clubs in the Third Division have nothing to play for, and happily finish at bottom.

HOWEVER, there is no doubt that Scotland should be capable of a nationwide league of 40+ clubs.

Quote above - "most clubs in the Third Division have nothing to play for, and happily finish at bottom"

Rubbish. Just rubbish. I'm sure anyone in the SFL would be none too chuffed at finishing as the worst team in the country. There will be some emotion involved, that's for sure, but 'happy' wouldn't be one of them,

[kiwififer]

what non league team like say, Tayport, would want to have to spend shit loads on improving their ground and all the rest, just to play in the 3rd?

They would much rather be a big fish in a wee pond.

[Socks]

mid-table, on Mar 4 2008, 23:20, said:

This season

I wouldn't base too much on that information - we're listed as having an average of less than 3000, when actually we haven't had a single attendance below that mark this year.

kiwififer, on Mar 5 2008, 10:21, said:

what non league team like say, Tayport, would want to have to spend shit loads on improving their ground and all the rest, just to play in the 3rd?

They would much rather be a big fish in a wee pond.

You miss the point. A pyramid system allows teams the chance to take up a place in a national league, assuming they can meet some kind of minimum standard of ground safety. Nobody is forced to come up and spend money - if they don't want to make necessary improvements or don't fancy the travelling expense of playing in a national league, they stay where they are - quite simple really. I really think people over-complicate these arguments at times.

As for the argument about too many clubs though, I really find that a daft argument as well. Clubs should simply be paying out what they can afford to spend, and frankly so what if their crowds are only a few hundred, as long as they keep within their means. Whether these teams are within the scope of the SFL or not doesn't amke any difference - they would still exist as community clubs at whatever level, backed by whatever fans they have, just as many clubs in the Highland league, EoS, SoS and juniors do.

Or is the suggestion that every club below a certain mark simply be told that their time is up, regardless of whether they are a 3rd division team, a highland leage team, a junior team or an amateur team? I really don't see teh logic behind such thinking.