[djn]

Ivo den Bieman, on Jan 22 2008, 12:10, said:

Took in a junior game the other week and was shocked to see Kevin Haynes playing for Bathgate. Why would someone leave a second division team to play glorified pub football with a very average junior side?

Haynesy? What a man, a hero of mine

Gutted to see him leave, but if Bathgate and East Fife (where the badly missed Gary Greenhill is about to win a second Third Division medal in a year) can pay more money than us, then where does that leave us for players?

I know we couldn't compete with Raith, Airdrie, Ayr etc financially, but we need to offer a decent wage to attract people out of the Central Belt, and if there's more money to be made at "lower" clubs...

[Ivo den Bieman]

Hmmn Bathgate apparently run as a personal hobby by a multi millionaire so money no object. McGrillen was playing for them too (and is still a diving, whinging, referee-bothering arse) as well as a who's who of recent senior players. The boy Carlin who used to be in goal for Cowden in Keith Wright's days is now there.

You have to ask about the ambition of a player who leaves to play football at that level- it's a joke. That lack of ambition probably meant he wouldn't have cut it at a higher level anyway, even if he was a decent third division player.

Oh well, looks like Berwick will be back in the third next season and if things continue as they are will be having a Dumbarton-esque time of it, slumped in the bottom four with no money.

[BerwickMad]

hughj, on Jan 22 2008, 12:39, said:

Berwick have never been the same since the days of Paul Smith and Jamie Curle,

Aye. We arnt in massive dept anymore and don't pay average players like Eddie Forrest £400 a week. We also have a championship win for all to see.

[Monster]

BerwickMad, on Jan 22 2008, 13:53, said:

Aye. We arnt in massive dept anymore and don't pay average players like Eddie Forrest £400 a week. We also have a championship win for all to see.

Ayr are paying Eddie Forrest about that and they've never won the Third Division.

There's always next season though, fingers crossed.

As for teams like Bathgate, it's just a passing fad. Ayr are in the same situation in Ayrshire with Irvine Meadow. The money never lasts and when the rich benefactor leaves clubs are left gubbed.

[lzreid]

Just watched the goals, I have never seen such inept defending but Diacks second was a belter.

[FuzzyBear]

Ivo den Bieman, on Jan 22 2008, 12:51, said:

Hmmn Bathgate apparently run as a personal hobby by a multi millionaire so money no object. McGrillen was playing for them too (and is still a diving, whinging, referee-bothering arse) as well as a who's who of recent senior players. The boy Carlin who used to be in goal for Cowden in Keith Wright's days is now there.

You have to ask about the ambition of a player who leaves to play football at that level- it's a joke. That lack of ambition probably meant he wouldn't have cut it at a higher level anyway, even if he was a decent third division player.

Oh well, looks like Berwick will be back in the third next season and if things continue as they are will be having a Dumbarton-esque time of it, slumped in the bottom four with no money.

You are right. Bathgate are run by a millionnaire and pay most of their players around £250 a game which very few part time senior teams can match. You may think junior football is a joke but I can assure you that Bathgate would never lose 9 goals in 1 game against Peterhead.

[Ivo den Bieman]

I don't know about nine, but they'd lose 5-6. They're awful, as i can confirm having ground my teeth through a stultifyingly atrocious match involving them this month.

there are some very good junior teams- Linlithgow, Pollok, Lochee United, etc. bathgate don't come close.

[cmontheloknow]

Monster, on Jan 22 2008, 14:04, said:

Ayr are paying Eddie Forrest about that and they've never won the Third Division.

There's always next season though, fingers crossed.

As for teams like Bathgate, it's just a passing fad. Ayr are in the same situation in Ayrshire with Irvine Meadow. The money never lasts and when the rich benefactor leaves clubs are left gubbed.

Thing about Bathgate is though Willie Hill has been at the club for about 30 years as a player then as manager and now manager and millionaire benefactor. His money's going nowhere, and you could interpret that literally I suppose!

This post has been edited by cmontheloknow: 22 January 2008 - 17:36

[g-force1967]

Coughlin decided Haynesy should be let go. He also said McNicholl wouldn't be able to play 30 games a season. If Horn, Smith, McGroarty and Manson had remained fit then we would not be in this position. The fans have always rated McNicholl and always will.

We were supposed to be making a leap forward by playing in a higher division and as it stands now I think every fan would love to see Haynesy and McNicholl back in the side. At least we would go down fighting and theres no way Renwick would get away with the shambolic leadership he has displayed. He has slaughtered the players after saturday, but if he had any balls then he would have taken some of the blame himself and apologised to all Berwick supporters for that embarrassing display.

Its time Renwick, just go.

[Eddie_Plank]

hughj, on Jan 22 2008, 12:39, said:

Berwick have never been the same since the days of Paul Smith and Jamie Curle, they just make one bad decision after another. Their current manager does not seem to be up to the job (although probably better than Irons) but how can they expect any reasonable manager to apply to come in? No money and a board who think it acceptable to sack staff in car parks in front of the public, then leave without him (some of the fans think that's OK, they even suggest that's how the current manager should be treated!).
As I said at the start of the season, Berwick should not have let Grant McNichol leave the club, many fans down there said it was the right thing as he would not be good enough for the division. Suddenly they are all regreting the decision and want him back! does that mean that even they thought I was right?
If the current board care about the club and don't just love the blazers, they need to have a much more professional attitude and stick some real money into the club, it they are not prepared to do that then they should step aside and let someone else save the club from their shambles. Could Jamie Curle and Paul Smith be tempted back?
The simplest first step should be to bring back Mc Nichol and make him captain, that would give the fans and the players a hugh lift. Whatever happens, there needs to be swift decisive action the great fans of Berwick deserve so much more, I hope that they can recover soon from this shameful time in their history.

Some very good points here which I agree with.
I have been very critical of the present regime, one thing they have done is bring the debt down. Granted they have spent next to nothing and been benefited from a few half pay days from cup ties against SPL opposition plus the Danny Swanson transfer money.
A lot of people on here have been quick enough to stick the knife into John Coughlin's back, you cannot fault him for being honest and admit that he took the playing side as far as he could without damaging his own reputation.
Perhaps the Board need to look at their position and say to themselves, have we took the club as far as it can go under the present circumstances and before anyone comes bleating on in their defence, Berwick Rangers should and can easily hold it's own in division two without getting nine goals humped past them. No disrespect to Queen's Park (who play for nothing), if they can hold their own in this division than there's no reason why Berwick Rangers cannot.
If there are no interested parties in coming forward to move the club forward, well you have to stick your support on what's in control. But they are not inspiring any confidence or hope in the wake of Saturday's mess.
Paul Smith was sacked for less than the humilation of last Saturday, the way that handled fecklessly by the club management. Not even during the two dark spells under Jimmy Thomson did we stoop as low as Peterhead last Saturday. The board have a slight chance to redeem themselves here but time is running out for them if they do not do the only decision they can make and fire Renwick.

[boardroomshuffler]

Easier said than done.How much would it cost to pay the manager and the assistant off.Then we have Robbie Henderson,who, from all accounts was in no fit condition to be playing in the second division.If he has been signed, and,not to play again how much will that cost?

I really have no idea what is for the best,though, some covert operation is happening tonight.Be interesting to see/hear what happens at that meet.

[Eddie_Plank]

[quote name='boardroomshuffler' date='Jan 22 2008, 18:36' post='2161931']
Easier said than done.How much would it cost to pay the manager and the assistant off.Then we have Robbie Henderson,who, from all accounts was in no fit condition to be playing in the second division.If he has been signed, and,not to play again how much will that cost?

Valid points Shuffler, no arguments there about that but counting that Coughlin worked his first season without a contract I would hardly think that Renwick & Martin would be on extremely long/lucrative contracts if they were offered them in the first place counting their lack of experience.

Henderson, he's a Renwick signing so he should take the blame for that one. He's surely aware of the player's background and whether or not he was capable of making the step up into division two. I know he was on Pollok's books could he have not have featured as a trialist or was that not possible due to red tape.

[cmontheloknow]

Eddie_Plank, on Jan 22 2008, 18:58, said:

Hnderson, he's a Renwick signing so he should take the blame for that one. He's surely aware of the player's background and whether or not he was capable of making the step up into division two. I know he was on Pollok's books could he have not have featured as a trialist or was that not possible due to red tape.

There would have been nothing to stop Robbie going on trial as far as red tape is concerned, as long as it was with our permission. That said, I wasn't aware the club were actively looking to move him on despite his 2 month absence from matchday action - the only player that we had listed was 27 year old Mark Booth, a tough tackling defensive midfielder who's clocked up over 200 SFL appearances with a variety of clubs.

I was told a week last sunday that we'd released Robbie in order for him to sign up at Berwick, though whether he approached BRFC or they had approached him, I'm unsure.

[BerwickMad]

hughj, on Jan 22 2008, 12:39, said:

Could Jamie Curle and Paul Smith be tempted back?

Good luck trying to find someone!

[duns_car_repairs]

wilson oot renick oot everi yin oot it needs a new brroom ta sueep the cubord clen

[berwick-the-unbeatable]

Renwick oot Duns car repair f**k off someone who cares about the club in.

[Martin Prince]

Eddie_Plank, on Jan 22 2008, 17:55, said:

Some very good points here which I agree with.
I have been very critical of the present regime, one thing they have done is bring the debt down. Granted they have spent next to nothing and been benefited from a few half pay days from cup ties against SPL opposition plus the Danny Swanson transfer money.

We also got £30k for Gary Wood when we sold him to QOS in August 2003.

[marty_j]

It's difficult to add to what has already been said.

BUT, in all my time supporting BRFC I have never been emabarrased by their scores. UNTIL Saturday. We are the laughing stock of Scottish Football, something has to change or we will NEVER entice paying customers back to Shielfield.

What a wasted season. The thing is we could get humped by even more soon (Airdrie, Raith etc)

Renwick must go - out of his depth I'm afraid.

[djn]

Not gone yet

[marty_j]

hughj, on Jan 22 2008, 12:39, said:

Berwick have never been the same since the days of Paul Smith and Jamie Curle, Could Jamie Curle and Paul Smith be tempted back?

How quaint speaking about yourself in the third person Jamie.

[john bell]

marty_j, on Jan 23 2008, 13:14, said:

It's difficult to add to what has already been said.

BUT, in all my time supporting BRFC I have never been emabarrased by their scores. UNTIL Saturday. We are the laughing stock of Scottish Football, something has to change or we will NEVER entice paying customers back to Shielfield.

What a wasted season. The thing is we could get humped by even more soon (Airdrie, Raith etc)

Renwick must go - out of his depth I'm afraid.

There's been a lot of focus on Renwick since Saturday especially, but I think there's some issues being missed - we previously had a good manager doing extremely well with minimal support from his Board. I have no doubt that John Coughlin saw the likely struggles ahead and chose to preserve his credibility, and sanity, by moving on. We now have a very inexperienced manager struggling badly, with just as little, or less, support from the people who appointed him.

Much has been made of the club being free of debt, but most clubs have a degree of debt, much of the time being well-managed debt. Under Jamie Curle, the Bank didn't perceive the debt as a risk, as it was set against his business interests. Not an ideal situation, I agree - but the Club was earning money through plum cup-ties on a fairly regular basis, and Jamie was perhaps guilty of running a one-man show (although when you see what's come afterwards from the same people, perhaps now that can be better understood!). However when Jamie left, the Bank started to worry, hence other arrangements being put in place to fill the void that Jamie's guarantees had left.

The debt was well on the way to being addressed, with other guarantors, a long-term bank loan, some share issues and other income, like Gary Woods transfer. Wages were being reduced to a more sustainable amount.

However the current Board then managed to add to that debt by overspending against their agreed budget by about £20,000 (as raised at the last Club AGM) and not earning any additional income. In the last year or so there has been great efforts to pay off the loan and wipe out overdrafts - that's where this years transfer fees for Swanson, Greenhill and Haynes went - which needless to say Coff would have been a tad unhapppy with.

In doing so, the Club has saved some interest payments, granted. But what it has done is make shareholdings more valuable - a debt free club has got be worth more to a potential buyer that one that owes money. So by deciding not to invest in the team, there's a few potential winners off the pitch. Lets make one thing clear - there has been no 'no-strings' investment in BRFC - those that have put money in have got shares in return, or are being repaid loans over time. A valuable contrbution, yes, but not exactly charitable benefactors.

In the bigger picture, its been a long time since relationships were so low between supporters and the Board - communication is neglible and/or paranoid- and you can't help but get the feeling that no-one really cares whether the crowds at Shielfield are 500 or 200. And its not a Trust/Board issue either - yes, it tends to be the usual suspects that voice their opinions, but there's many other people not connected to the Trust that aren't happy.

[Lothian]

cmontheloknow, on Jan 22 2008, 19:11, said:

There would have been nothing to stop Robbie going on trial as far as red tape is concerned, as long as it was with our permission. That said, I wasn't aware the club were actively looking to move him on despite his 2 month absence from matchday action - the only player that we had listed was 27 year old Mark Booth, a tough tackling defensive midfielder who's clocked up over 200 SFL appearances with a variety of clubs.

I was told a week last sunday that we'd released Robbie in order for him to sign up at Berwick, though whether he approached BRFC or they had approached him, I'm unsure.

As I understand, Henderson played as a Trialist at Peterhead and has not been signed?

[boardroomshuffler]

Henderson was not listed as a trialist,all accounts say he was a very poor signing.

At this time, i have not heard if anyone else has been brought in for this weekend,only, that Thompson is fit again after injury.Still means an injury ravaged squad having to face a Raith team, who will not have been humoured by the previous meeting of the teams at Shielfield.

Noble you would think should be the preferred option for the left back position ,it appears he is out of favour more than any other reason.

McGroaty it seems just turns up when he wants to,the club should be putting a stop to his wages as that must be breach of contract.

The Manson situation was the most puzzling ,another player injured ,yet he appears on the bench v Alloa.The following week he is not listed, as he is two weeks away from being ready.Why was he on the bench? just to fill a space when a reserve player could have done that.

Someone earlier suggested both Diack and McGroaty should leave the club before the transfer window ends,that at least would give Berwick some money.Its a good enough suggestion given that we are going down,problem being its another two players gone,and,as of this time no replacements.

Is Renwick good enough,probably not,then again who would entertain a managers job at Berwick at this time.

[BerwickMad]

I know Cough was a friend of the trust and attended events and so on, but lets not forget his part in this. He made some very poor signings in the summer, a few on bigger wages than we had been paying for a quite a while. It was him who signed Gemmill on a big wage, him who fell out with Greenhill, him who got rid of Haynes, him who got rid of McNicoll. Even in keeping with last seasons squad and not improving it, we should have had a far far better start to the season. Look at Queens Park. Cough realised this and jumped ship in my opinion. It's quite easy for him to make excuses after the event and you can look at it as him preserving his credibility, or jumping ship when he realised he had fucked up.

I agree he had a brilliant two seasons and we will always remember it, but he fucked up following the championship success in my opinion and we shouldnt let the good times just erase what happened after it when we are talking about the position we are in now.

My opinion of the trust-board thing is that both are on extreme ends of the scale, and most fans fall somewhere in the middle of the two. Some of the moaning and sack the board shouts, just because directors don't return to their seats in time for the second half are pretty kneejerk and do people no favours. Just my opinion from the back of the Ducket anyway. I could be reading it wrong.

[boardroomshuffler]

marty_j, on Jan 23 2008, 13:33, said:

How quaint speaking about yourself in the third person Jamie.

Its a mirage you fool