[CC 33]

SavotheGreat, on Nov 4 2007, 15:51, said:

Finally, a Dundee fan with a level head (figuratively speaking and disregarding any anatomically challenged Dundonians); I can talk to you. Yes, Alan's kicking was a little wayward on occassion. But I reckon you will struggle to find a straight-kicking keeper in this league. Bryn's kicking was poor.

Main's problem is he can't seem to get the ball very high off the ground. 3 or 4 times he struggled to even make the half way line. It was the same at Perth earlier in the season, and something that we should have tried to capitalise on yesterday.

[Radford]

CC 33, on Nov 4 2007, 14:31, said:

McHale has to start every week now. Move Robertson to the right and let him drift in if he wants but it's time for Daquin to receive his jotters. Malone was pretty poor, although he looked a bit better when moved to the back. It's a real shame Corrigan is off because he played really well yesterday, far better than Worrel or Griffin.

McHale is a good player but Robertson and McDonald are both box-to-box players and I'd choose them over him for that reason. We don't have anyone in that mould, our midfielders are either attacking or defensive. I am surprised that Rae hasn't tried Robertson on the right. Doubt he'd move McDonald back there after last season but he should be finding a way to include all three of them, and Swkie. What does he see in Daquin? I thought he looked ok in Perth but he gets poor reviews from you guys every week.

Corrigan was excellent as well.

CC 33, on Nov 4 2007, 16:20, said:

Main's problem is he can't seem to get the ball very high off the ground. 3 or 4 times he struggled to even make the half way line. It was the same at Perth earlier in the season, and something that we should have tried to capitalise on yesterday.

His kicking has always been his downfall and the reason he never played for Scotland, that and the fact he played for Saints. I guess guys like Main grew up without the passback rule so have had to adapt their games to suit it. Still wouldn't swap him for any other 'keeper in the league though.

[rumple]

Radford, on Nov 4 2007, 20:31, said:

McHale is a good player but Robertson and McDonald are both box-to-box players and I'd choose them over him for that reason. We don't have anyone in that mould, our midfielders are either attacking or defensive. I am surprised that Rae hasn't tried Robertson on the right. Doubt he'd move McDonald back there after last season but he should be finding a way to include all three of them, and Swkie. What does he see in Daquin? I thought he looked ok in Perth but he gets poor reviews from you guys every week.

I use to be willing to give Daquin the benefit of the doubt because his presence does help the team keep a balanced shape, and he does provide cover for whoever's playing right back.

McDonald and Robertson are automatic choices for central midfield, and Swánkie might be inconsistent, but he's too much of a threat at this level to be left out. He's always capable of doing something explosive.

So that all effectively ruled McHale out of a starting slot. I'd been starting to doubt this, howerver, and after the second half yesterday I now think that McHale has to start in place of Daquin.

You're right. McHale is not a box to box player, but if he's in the holding role then that allows McDonald and Robertson to rampage forward, and both are capable of scoring. I'm sure the presence of McHale was a major factor in the good performances of McDonald and Robertson in the second half.

I'd also been concerned about a lack of width on the right after Daquin went off, but Robertson, Lyle and Davidson just took it in turns to peel off there, and their constant movement with players switching and making diagonal runs to and fro in front of the defenders opened up a lot of space.

We've taken some valid criticism (or scepticism) for our lack of a greedy, 20 goal a season goalscorer, but I think if we persist with McHale in a sitting role, allowing others to get forward then we'll get enough goals to be in contention till the end of the season.

As for Saints; they showed they can play good football and gave us a real hounding for 25 minutes, but there seemed to be just the one plan. My question would be - why didn't or couldn't Coyle react to Dundee's changes to try and rescue the midfield?

Rae showed his hand 5 minutes before half time when he sent on McHale, so Coyle knew Saints would be facing three central midfielders in the second half.

Also, Swánkie was pulled into the dressing room just a couple of minutes into the half time warm-up. We all knew he had to be coming on in place of either Dixon or Malone, but it seemed to take Saints by surprise. Did none of the Saints subbies think to warn their boss that Swánkie was coming on? It's not like Swánkie's an unknown threat.

If Coyle was bending the ref's ear at half time about Mackenzie not being sent off (as I hear he was), then he was surely being remiss. He should have been getting the team prepared for a different Dundee approach. Mind you, given the inordinate time before Coyle made any changes, maybe it's unreasonable to have expected him to use half time more constructively. B)

This post has been edited by rumple: 04 November 2007 - 20:41

[davidy233]

Radford - having viewed the highlights I'm not convinced that big Gazza even handled - it was very much shoulder country.

[Dee4Life1893]

davidy233, on Nov 4 2007, 20:49, said:

Radford - having viewed the highlights I'm not convinced that big Gazza even handled - it was very much shoulder country.

I looked at the highlights too (£3.50 ) How much & how long does it take to join the Club Dundee thingy??

Anyway after seeing the highlights I still feel it hit his elbow. I was right behind it in the BC and that was what I thought at the time.

Should have walked.

[hazel1884]

My post from WAP...some will be irrelevent to this thread but it's after a complete over reaction on there..

Re: Dundee vs. St Johnstone 03/11/07 With a bit of perspective upon yesterday you can see people are clearly hurting after losing to the scum! Haven't read all the thread but this is my view...

Dundee are a physical physical side who defend well and have the pace to play the counter attack game - we struggled with this, but IMO the slating of Willie McLaren is unjustified to an extent. He shows what he can do but too many times people don't look for him, and to be honest it was always going to be far too physical a game for McLaren and i didn't expect him to be in the starting line up. I mentioned this at kick off and said i was surprised not to see Davie Weatherston in there.

Thought our best players yesterday were the back 4. That says alot. Sheerin looks tired, and looks like he could do with a rest but he's not "been shit for 2 years" as i read on this thread briefly...he's had a few fantastic games this season, and i'm sure he will get back to it. He's being asked to go out on the left and it's a lot of work for an old boy you know!

I thought Rocco was doing the job of him and McInnes, as well as going out to cover McLaren at times and put in a power of work. Thought he was going to run the show, but struggled after 20 minutes due to doing other people's work. This also obviously had a knock on affect on the front two and caused them to drop back for the ball again...even Peaso was doing this when he came on.

One other thing is the hunger? There looked to be nothing and we've gone back to being second to the ball and waiting for the ball to come to the player - we were particularly bad for that at the start of the season and it looked it yesterday.

However, it's not all doom and gloom. The defence were pretty solid yesterday (apart from the few passbacks!) and we know we can do it - we never play well at Dens (or generally infront of a good away support!) but once we conceed a goal there's nobody giving it the heads up and leading them on in my opinion. In the words of Richard Gordon (or 208Saint!) "We can do this!"

[doogster]

shawfield shed boy, on Nov 4 2007, 16:42, said:

How did malone play ..

Malone was out of his depth (position/fitness?) 1st half and didn't look to be at the races. But having said that, no-one other than Samson got pass marks in the first half. He looked much more settled when he got pulled back to left back in the 2nd half - two things here, we were going forward at this point and it indicates how bad Dixon (a player that I really rate), was playing. Malone's tackle that earned a booking was a shocker.

Radford, on Nov 4 2007, 20:31, said:

McHale is a good player but Robertson and McDonald are both box-to-box players and I'd choose them over him for that reason. We don't have anyone in that mould, our midfielders are either attacking or defensive. I am surprised that Rae hasn't tried Robertson on the right. Doubt he'd move McDonald back there after last season but he should be finding a way to include all three of them, and Swkie. What does he see in Daquin? I thought he looked ok in Perth but he gets poor reviews from you guys every week.

The midfield is a nightmare this season - both McDonald and Robertson can be class acts - however, as seen yesterday, they both have the ability to rate 2/10 (1st half) or 8/10 (2nd half). If you could bottle what Rae said to them at half time you'd be laughing. Any time I've seen McHale he's been one of the best players on the park so I'd accommodate him, whatever it takes. Freddie had a great game at McDiarmid - probably my MOM. Unfortunately, one great game in 6/7 doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned - I think O'Brien might feature more in the future.

One great thing we seem to have this season is the ability to refuse to believe we're beaten - heads don't go down after we've lost the (inevitable) first goal. I think Rae/Farrell must take a lot credit for this.

Overall I thnk our midfield will determine where we finish this season. The defence is solid enough, the strikers will score goals given the opportunity - the midfield will determine whether or not we're on the front or back foot.

[doogster]

hazel1884, on Nov 5 2007, 00:04, said:

My post from WAP...some will be irrelevent to this thread but it's after a complete over reaction on there..

Re: Dundee vs. St Johnstone 03/11/07 With a bit of perspective upon yesterday you can see people are clearly hurting after losing to the scum! Haven't read all the thread but this is my view...

Dundee are a physical physical side who defend well and have the pace to play the counter attack game - we struggled with this, but IMO the slating of Willie McLaren is unjustified to an extent. He shows what he can do but too many times people don't look for him, and to be honest it was always going to be far too physical a game for McLaren and i didn't expect him to be in the starting line up. I mentioned this at kick off and said i was surprised not to see Davie Weatherston in there.

Thought our best players yesterday were the back 4. That says alot. Sheerin looks tired, and looks like he could do with a rest but he's not "been shit for 2 years" as i read on this thread briefly...he's had a few fantastic games this season, and i'm sure he will get back to it. He's being asked to go out on the left and it's a lot of work for an old boy you know!

I thought Rocco was doing the job of him and McInnes, as well as going out to cover McLaren at times and put in a power of work. Thought he was going to run the show, but struggled after 20 minutes due to doing other people's work. This also obviously had a knock on affect on the front two and caused them to drop back for the ball again...even Peaso was doing this when he came on.

One other thing is the hunger? There looked to be nothing and we've gone back to being second to the ball and waiting for the ball to come to the player - we were particularly bad for that at the start of the season and it looked it yesterday.

However, it's not all doom and gloom. The defence were pretty solid yesterday (apart from the few passbacks!) and we know we can do it - we never play well at Dens (or generally infront of a good away support!) but once we conceed a goal there's nobody giving it the heads up and leading them on in my opinion. In the words of Richard Gordon (or 208Saint!) "We can do this!"

Thought that was a pretty accurate description of the Saints performance. The only thing I'd say is that you support St Johnstone - known to us as the Saints/Saintees/Fermers. We are known as the Dees or "coagies/coags" etc - rivallry I don't mind. Being called scum annoys me. This may have one of two consequences - either you'll call Dee fans scumdee/scum more frequently, or you may think for a minute that the fans that use this forum are just normal people who support their local team.

[Web]

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 17:56, said:

Don't go sticking those rose tinted spectacles on now!

Some truly cynical fouls on their part on both Rocco and Gary Irvine, some horrendous play from Dundee. We should have devoured them in the first 10 minutes, should have been at least three. Lost it a little in the second half but we were never out of it, certainly had the better of the first half.

Atmosphere in the Dundee end was pretty awful as well. Could barely hear them, well up until they scored that is. Very vocal Saints crowd all the way through the match. Not sure what went on with regard to the first goal. We converted a scramble in the box, but instead of playing advantage and giving the goal the referee gave a penalty. At which point due to a blatant handball the Dundee player should have been sent off. Sheerin converted and 1-0.

We controlled the game in the first half but Dundee came out with renewed vigour. It wasn't so much the case of Dundee winning it, more the case that we threw it away. We really lacked that extra threat in the second half. We were still well in the game but didn't look as dangerous. Dundee through their limited means still managed to capitalise and it obviously ended up 2-1, with Dundee scoring with what was nigh on the last kick of the ball.

No outstanding performer, no bad performer. We need to up the ante. We cannot continually expect to go to places like Dens and Forthbank and come away with an easy victory. The effort has got to be there, we have got to start moving out of second gear.

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 18:07, said:

Well no. But in all fairness, its no the first time it has happened. Look back to the last time we played Dundee, Hardie was sent off for what was in truth an innocuous jab. Its just another in a long chain of events which play tribute to the song: "same old Dundee, always cheating."

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 18:15, said:

Well to be honest when the referee actually gave a rare decision in our favour it was the most vocal i'd heard your lot all day. Its pretty much the only time you'd stand up and slur some Dundonian into the air.

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 18:16, said:

Some honesty at last.

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 18:19, said:

C'mon! 10 points behind is hardly insurmountable, particularly when the leaders have got the bombscare between the sticks.

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 18:22, said:

A clear handball? Whit? Easy to manipulate any argument to get your own way, cheating in the game and now cheating your way into an argument.

Simple truth be told you player should have gone. It was a turning point in the game. You played on with eleven men (twelve if you include the ref) when really you should have been down to ten.

But ah well. We have come to expect these things when we play Dundee.

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 18:26, said:

There is a precedent here. Albeit a pretty shitty one, but certainly a precedent which shows that a ten point lead is far from being an insurmountable one.

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 19:04, said:

So simple yet spot on. Terrific response.

Nice to see Savo has encouraged the Dundee fans to engage in their most favoured of hobbies:

ST JOHNSTONE BASHING!

They come and they go but i'm amazed at this most recent batch of Dundee supporters. They are as un-realistic as ever but on top of that, they are also entirely deluded. To say that some of their challenges were anything short of heinous is a massive understatement.

The challenges - as I noted in my first post - on Irvine and Rocco were barbaric. Utterly atrocious, the kind of challenges which would make you revise the idea of allowing football players to be charged for assault.

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 19:14, said:

And GBH is merely slapping someone on the back of the head. He kicked Gary into the air!

The ferociousness and damn right disregard for the welfare of others shown by this Dundee XI is beyond belief.

SavotheGreat, on Nov 3 2007, 19:20, said:

Shhhhhh! WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?!?!?!?

STICK WITH THE PARTY LINE YOU FOOL!

Malone's tackle was a shocker but I still 100% fcuking loved it

GIRFUY

[Radford]

rumple, on Nov 4 2007, 20:38, said:

I use to be willing to give Daquin the benefit of the doubt because his presence does help the team keep a balanced shape, and he does provide cover for whoever's playing right back.

McDonald and Robertson are automatic choices for central midfield, and Swánkie might be inconsistent, but he's too much of a threat at this level to be left out. He's always capable of doing something explosive.

So that all effectively ruled McHale out of a starting slot. I'd been starting to doubt this, howerver, and after the second half yesterday I now think that McHale has to start in place of Daquin.

You're right. McHale is not a box to box player, but if he's in the holding role then that allows McDonald and Robertson to rampage forward, and both are capable of scoring. I'm sure the presence of McHale was a major factor in the good performances of McDonald and Robertson in the second half.

I'd also been concerned about a lack of width on the right after Daquin went off, but Robertson, Lyle and Davidson just took it in turns to peel off there, and their constant movement with players switching and making diagonal runs to and fro in front of the defenders opened up a lot of space.

We've taken some valid criticism (or scepticism) for our lack of a greedy, 20 goal a season goalscorer, but I think if we persist with McHale in a sitting role, allowing others to get forward then we'll get enough goals to be in contention till the end of the season.

As for Saints; they showed they can play good football and gave us a real hounding for 25 minutes, but there seemed to be just the one plan. My question would be - why didn't or couldn't Coyle react to Dundee's changes to try and rescue the midfield?

Rae showed his hand 5 minutes before half time when he sent on McHale, so Coyle knew Saints would be facing three central midfielders in the second half.

Also, Swánkie was pulled into the dressing room just a couple of minutes into the half time warm-up. We all knew he had to be coming on in place of either Dixon or Malone, but it seemed to take Saints by surprise. Did none of the Saints subbies think to warn their boss that Swánkie was coming on? It's not like Swánkie's an unknown threat.

If Coyle was bending the ref's ear at half time about Mackenzie not being sent off (as I hear he was), then he was surely being remiss. He should have been getting the team prepared for a different Dundee approach. Mind you, given the inordinate time before Coyle made any changes, maybe it's unreasonable to have expected him to use half time more constructively. B)

4-5-1 is working for Accies, without a guy that you'd naturally expect to make a good lone striker doing well. If Dundee can get the runners (Robertson, McDonald, Swankie forward) it could be the answer for them as it would also firm things up in the middle of the park to try and eradicate these early goals. On another week, those chances will fall to the right players and the game will be over before it's started.

When Rae took Daquin off I thought he was making a huge mistake as he basically reacted to the first time the crowd really got on his back. It's worked out alright in the end but he's done Daquin no favours at all.

We didn't have the personnel to react to Rae's changes and that's maybe something Coyle needs to address when chosing his subs. Lawrie is a right back come centre back, Weatherston a forward we play on the wing and MacDonald and Stewart out-and-out strikers. Even when the changes did come, they were nothing changes. MacDonald offers a bit more strength and did ok but Weatherston for McLaren is a nothing change that isn't going to dramatically increase our chances of a win and isn't gonna shore us up. When it got to that stage he'd have been as well sticking with the XI on the field but telling them just to take the point and not press forward like we were trying to do. His other option was to move McLaren to the left and then bring Weatherston on for McInnes or Sheerin, an attacking change if you like. If we lose the game from there at least he was trying to win it, the change he made was just for the sake of it almost. His use of the bench in general is poor though.

davidy233, on Nov 4 2007, 20:49, said:

Radford - having viewed the highlights I'm not convinced that big Gazza even handled - it was very much shoulder country.

Referee didn't know that though, so still made an arse of things.

doogster, on Nov 5 2007, 00:48, said:

Malone's tackle that earned a booking was a shocker.

Get used to it, he's a nasty little cunt. The St Mirren fans love him for it but it's not so good when the yellows or reds start appearing and costing you.

doogster, on Nov 5 2007, 00:48, said:

The midfield is a nightmare this season - both McDonald and Robertson can be class acts - however, as seen yesterday, they both have the ability to rate 2/10 (1st half) or 8/10 (2nd half). If you could bottle what Rae said to them at half time you'd be laughing. Any time I've seen McHale he's been one of the best players on the park so I'd accommodate him, whatever it takes.

Do you think the temptation might be there to cash in on Robertson in January, since he's the one that won't get you any compensation in the summer? Could argue only the squad will be weakened as McHale is a more than suitable replacement and it would maybe give the midfield a bit more balance with McHale sitting and then McDonald pushing forward. Robertston money could then be used to offer better contracts to a few of the others?

[H_B]

Good to see my First Division investment closing in on the title

[Gibraltar Dees]

Hieronymous_Bosch, on Nov 5 2007, 10:20, said:

Good to see my First Division investment closing in on the title

Mine too, although could do with Ross Co and Montrose for the treble

[Dee4Life1893]

Gibraltar Dees, on Nov 5 2007, 09:28, said:

Mine too, although could do with Ross Co and Montrose for the treble

I went for Celtic Dundee Raith Rovers & Arbroath

Not looking very good

[dundeebarry]

Tickets to Aston Villa Vs Derby County - £30

Flights and accommodation in Birmingham - £80

A cold beer and a hot pie at the game - £5

A phone call from home at 4:55 to say that Dundee and QOTS scored last minute winners.................................. ......

PRICELESS!!!
AWAY THE DEE!!!!!

[Turbo_dee]

I'm sure you will get over defeat soon savo.

[DeeJay35]

SavotheGreat, on Nov 5 2007, 13:03, said:

These DEE fans don't half get excited when they score a victory over a big side.

Laff?.......I nearly pished myself!

So, had you won the game Savo you wouldnt have gave it big style?...Yeah right


Anyway the game itself.... Draw was probably fair..... Mckenzie should have walked IMO (suppose the saints fans did that when 2nd goal went in!).... The dee could have had 2 pens...

Still a long way to go, but the dee close the gap to 3 pts when Accies could have been nearly out of sight....

[Lex]

Oh well, there's St Johnstones ' title challenge ' ( ) over for another season.

Enjoying your time where you belong in the football wilderness Saintees?

[Fife Saint]

Only game i have missed all season after having a blow out on the M80 and being stranded at Stirling for 2 hours!!! Thank f**k for cheap tyres!!

By the sounds of it our old problems are coming back to bite us on the bum with not finishing teams when we have the chance.

Sounds like the Dee should have had a pen with a handball so i'm not going to make a song and dance about McKenzie not getting sent off.

Not digging the negative views from my fellow Saints though. Need to get back inot the swing of things against Dunfy on Sat and take it from there.

[doogster]

Radford, on Nov 5 2007, 08:42, said:

Do you think the temptation might be there to cash in on Robertson in January, since he's the one that won't get you any compensation in the summer? Could argue only the squad will be weakened as McHale is a more than suitable replacement and it would maybe give the midfield a bit more balance with McHale sitting and then McDonald pushing forward. Robertston money could then be used to offer better contracts to a few of the others?

Really hard question to answer.

Scenario #1 - sell Robertson in January - could make no difference to us (no chance) or could seriously jeapordise our season (more likely). Would the transfer fee really be that much given the state of the transfer market here? Also, you run the risk of McHale or McDonald picking up suspension/injury.

Scenario #2 - keep Robertson and push for promotion. Football being what it is, he could pick up a serious injury on the 1st of February and be out for the season anyway!

The more I think about it, it's not a hard question - he's been arguably our most consistent performer this season, when he plays like he did in the 2nd half on Saturday he's worth his weight in gold and he's a 100% Dee.

[DeeJay35]

doogster, on Nov 6 2007, 00:11, said:

Really hard question to answer.

Scenario #1 - sell Robertson in January - could make no difference to us (no chance) or could seriously jeapordise our season (more likely). Would the transfer fee really be that much given the state of the transfer market here? Also, you run the risk of McHale or McDonald picking up suspension/injury.

Scenario #2 - keep Robertson and push for promotion. Football being what it is, he could pick up a serious injury on the 1st of February and be out for the season anyway!

The more I think about it, it's not a hard question - he's been arguably our most consistent performer this season, when he plays like he did in the 2nd half on Saturday he's worth his weight in gold and he's a 100% Dee.

Really easy to answer.... We need him if we want to have a chance of SPL next season - with or without him.

Hes already proved he can play well at this level, why would we even consider selling him? Hes still a young laddie and who knows he may even sign another contract with the Dees with a get out clause after a season in the SPL, if we go up that is.