[boardroomshuffler]

is happening reguarding juniors, eos and highland league teams

[HibeeJibee]

The proposal (which may or may not go before the AGM in June) - is to alter the current early rounds. Currently, the semi-finalists of both North and South Qualifying Cups join 20 SFL Second & Third Division in the First Round (Nov) = 28 clubs. 12 of the clubs are given random byes to the Second Round (Dec), where they are joined by the 8 winners of the previous round. The 10 Second Round winners join the SFL First and SPL sides in the Third Round (Jan).

The proposals being floated by David Taylor was to get rid of the 12 byes. The quarter-finalists of both Qualifying Cups would join, which leaves 4 slots. Thus it was proposed that the 3 Junior SuperLeague winners, and the Junior Cup winner, would qualify. HOWEVER there are logistical issues, including whether the QFs, SFs and Final of the Qualifying Cup would become worthless, and issues over how SJFA clubs can be competing in an SFA cup.

Last season, a more minor proposal was put forward to allow certain Junior clubs into the Qualifying Cups. However, this was voted down (I guess because the vast majority of the non-league members thought they'd be beaten). Currently, all 15 Highland league clubs and Golspie Sutherland (NCFL) contest the North Qualifying Cup = 16, while all 23 East of Scotland league clubs and Newton Stewart, St Cuthberts Wanderers, Threave Rovers, Wigtown & Bladnoch (South of Scotland), Burntisland Shipyard (KCL), Girvan (Juniors West) and Glasgow University (CL) contest the South Qualifying Cup = 30. So arguably 2 Junior clubs could be put into the South qualifying cup without it affecting the number of rounds, and they couldn't take up all the Cup slots either.

Another idea is for all associate members to enter the cup in the First Round, together with a select number of East and South of Scotland clubs who aren't associate members but currently enter the competition anyway. This seems unlikely due to long travel and tournament length.

Proposals to scrap Semi-Final replays, and reform the cup-tied rules, are also being mooted.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 30 April 2007 - 20:35

[cmontheloknow]

The last proposal you mention IS what is going before the AGM (basically - though no 'non-associate' East or South SFA members enter the cup just now. They're as excluded as the Juniors) . The sweetener is that there will be £2000 prize money, even for a beaten side so finanical losses will not be incurred.

The Southern Counties FA have already voted in favour. I spoke to a South of Scotland League manager recently and he implied the whole thing was a done deal.

Here's when the Associate members last qualified (three times) for the Scottish Cup proper. The new proposal lets them all in from the 1st Round. (In the 1950s this also happened, and it's unsurprising that some clubs have not qualified since).

Brora Rangers: 1996-97, 1984-85, 1982-83
Buckie Thistle: 2006-07, 2003-04, 2001-02
Clachnacuddin: 2003-04, 1999-00, 1998-99
Cove Rangers: 2005-06, 2004-05, 2002-03
Deveronvale: 2006-07, 2002-03, 2001-02
Forres Mechanics: 2005-06, 2001-02, 1988-89
Fort William: 1985-86 (only qualified once)
Fraserburgh: 2006-07, 1999-00, 1997-98
Huntly: 2004-05, 2003-04, 2002-03
Inverurie Locos: 2005-06, 2004-05, 2003-04
Keith: 2006-07, 2004-05, 2002-03
Lossiemouth: 2005-06, 1997-98, 1995-96
Nairn County: 1985-86, 1970-71, 1968-69
Rothes: 1993-94, 1986-87, 1980-81
Wick Academy: 2001-02, 1956-57, 1955-56

Annan Athletic: 2006-07, 1999-00, 1997-98
Civil Service Strollers: 1998-99, 1992-93, 1991-92
Edinburgh City: 2006-07, 2004-05, 2003-04
Edinburgh University: 2006-07, 1973-74, 1964-65
Preston Athletic: 2006-07, 2002-03 (only qualified twice)
Selkirk: 2005-06, 2002-03, 1993-94
Spartans: 2005-06, 2003-04, 2001-02
Whitehill Welfare: 2004-05, 2002-03, 2000-01
Coldstream: 2000-01, 1989-90, 1988-89
Dalbeattie Star: 2004-05, 1999-00, 1998-99
Gala Fairydean: 2001-02, 1996-97, 1995-96
Hawick Royal Albert: 1996-97, 1991-92, 1985-86
Vale of Leithen: 2003-04, 1997-98, 1992-93

Newton Stewart: 1956-57, 1955-56, 1954-55
St. Cuthbert Wanderers: 1994-95, 1993-94, 1976-77
Threave Rovers: 2005-06, 2003-04, 2002-03
Wigtown & Bladnoch: 1961-62, 1956-57, 1955-56

Girvan: 1976-77, 1956-57, 1955-56
Golspie Sutherland: never qualified
Glasgow University: 2004-05, 1995-96, 1975-76
Burntisland Shipyard Ams: 1994-95, 1977-78, 1971-72

The new proposal also potentially opens the cup up to the currently excluded Registered SFA Members. There would be a Scottish Cup place for the following were they to win their respective League (top division in EOS):

East of Scotland League
Craigroyston
Easthouses Lily MW
Heriot-Watt University
Lothian Thistle
Edinburgh Athletic
Eyemouth United
Kelso United
Ormiston
Peebles
Tynecastle

South of Scotland League
Abbey Vale
Creetown
Crichton
Dumfries
Fleet Star
Mid Annandale
Nithsdale Wanderers
Stranraer Athletic

Last time out Highland League blocked it, but this time it offers all 15 clubs Scottish Cup football. If everyone votes as they did for the previous proposal (except Highland who have to vote in favour) it will be passed. I don't know if the Scottish League's minor clubs can block it as I'm sure the big teams will see it as a good thing.

The following was in the Border Telegraph in the autumn:

Quote

"PROPOSALS to scrap the annual qualifying cup competition are about to be sent out to football clubs across the Borders.

Bosses at Hampden want to change the Scottish Cup structure from next season.

And the plans they have drawn up will see local teams like Gala Fairydean, Selkirk and Vale of Leithen go straight into the first- round draw.

But also in the draw would be 14 clubs from the Highland leagues and the four best junior sides.

The second round would see the 18 first-round winners joined by the winners and runner-up from the Highland League, the winners of the East of Scotland and South Leagues and the 10 teams in the Scottish third division.

Similar proposals were rejected two years ago by the Scottish Football Association's 78 member clubs.

But more tempting financial initiatives have been added this time - with all teams receiving travel expenses for the first two rounds and a minimum payment of £2,000 for taking part as well as increased bonus payments.

Andy Mitchell, from the SFA, told the Border Telegraph: "The Scottish Cup will become a truly national competition if the proposals are accepted. The feedback we have received so far has been positive.

"Formal notification will be sent to all member clubs and they will have time to digest and consider the changes being proposed.

"We have looked at the reasons why the proposals of two years ago were rejected and we have made significant improvements this time."

East of Scotland teams currently have to battle through two or three qualifying rounds to reach the lucrative first round of the Scottish Cup.

Selkirk made around £12,000 last season, which included bonuses, gate money and TV payments, when they progressed to meet Alloa.

But no Borders teams have qualified this season -with few earning anything close to next season's guaranteed £2,000 from their games in the qualifying cup.

Bill Berry, chairman of Gala Fairydean, welcomed the fresh approach to the national cup competition.

He told us: "I'm sure this will put East of Scotland football more in the limelight.

"I can't be negative about anything being proposed.

"A change was rejected the last time because we weren't given the full picture.

"I'm sure that won't be the case this time round.

"I believe this will be the first step to completely restructuring Scottish football - and it has to be welcomed.

"This area needs more representation at national level."

If the changes are accepted, it won't be the first time the Scottish Cup has opened up to local clubs.

In the mid-1950s, the qualifying cup competitions were scrapped for three seasons.

But many clubs were out of pocket because of travel.

In September 1954, Coldstream completed a 620-mile round trip to dump Wick out in the first round.

Their reward was a 530-mile round journey to be beaten by Brora in the second round of the competition.

But bosses at Hampden claim the new proposals should see clubs quids in.

The 78 members clubs of the Scottish Football Association will vote on the proposals at the annual general meeting to be held next year on May 30. "

This post has been edited by cmontheloknow: 30 April 2007 - 22:00

[Lossie Loon]

cmontheloknow, on Apr 30 2007, 22:58, said:

Here's when the Associate members last qualified (three times) for the Scottish Cup proper.

I thought all those clubs were full members, not associate? They are listed in the SFA club directory alongside SPL/SFL clubs with no distinction being made as to any difference in level of membership.

Unless 'associate' is just a general term and all clubs in the SFA are 'associate members'? Is there a difference?

This post has been edited by Lossie Loon: 30 April 2007 - 22:26

[cmontheloknow]

Lossie Loon, on Apr 30 2007, 23:21, said:

I thought all those clubs were full members, not associate? They are listed in the SFA club directory alongside SPL/SFL clubs with no distinction being made as to any difference in level of membership.

I can't really recall the difference between Associate and Full membership, if I had to hazard a guess it would be that Full members do not have to qualify for the Scottish Cup at present, whereas the Associate members do.

The main difference between clubs in SFA membership at any level is that the Registered members only play in a directly SFA-affiliated league but are ineligible for Scottish Cup entry. The bulk of the South of Scotland League for example are only Registered members.

Out of interest, as a Lossie fan would you be in favour of a guaranteed £2000 and entry into a big non-league 1st Round?

Edit: here's what the Scottish Cup rules presently say:

"5. Eligible Clubs
(a) The clubs in Full or Associate membership of the Association which are not members of either The Scottish Football League or The Scottish Premier League, unless debarred in terms of rule 51, shall compete for The Scottish Association Qualifying Cup (North) or The Scottish Association Qualifying Cup (South).
(B) The clubs in membership of The Scottish Football League, The Scottish Premier League, the clubs which play in the semi-final round of The Scottish Association Qualifying Cup (North) and those which play in the semi-final round of The Scottish Association Qualifying Cup (South) Competitions, in the current season, unless debarred in terms of rule 51, shall compete for The Scottish Association Cup."

This post has been edited by cmontheloknow: 30 April 2007 - 22:32

[Lossie Loon]

cmontheloknow, on Apr 30 2007, 23:28, said:

I can't really recall the difference between Associate and Full membership, if I had to hazard a guess it would be that Full members do not have to qualify for the Scottish Cup at present, whereas the Associate members do.

I'm fairly sure that the bulk of the non-league seniors in the Qualifying Cup are full members - with maybe Locos being an associate member for a while as they are new to the SFA. I'm sure there is some sort of certificate at Lossie proclaiming the club to be full members of the SFA. I could well be wrong though.

Quote

The main difference between clubs in SFA membership at any level is that the Registered members only play in a directly SFA-affiliated league but are ineligible for Scottish Cup entry. The bulk of the South of Scotland League for example are only Registered members.

Ditto for the North Caley League - although I have wondered about Alness United's and Invergordon's exact status as they both take part in the Highland League's youth set-up and the SFA Youth Cup. Maybe it is simply because they are Registered clubs and have youth teams, simple as that.

Quote

Out of interest, as a Lossie fan would you be in favour of a guaranteed £2000 and entry into a big non-league 1st Round?

It would be a massive step forward.

[Lossie Loon]

cmontheloknow, on Apr 30 2007, 23:28, said:

(a) The clubs in Full or Associate membership of the Association which are not members of either The Scottish Football League or The Scottish Premier League

Confirms what I thought about some non-league clubs at least being full members.

[cmontheloknow]

Yep, double-checked, clubs can apply for full member status after 5 years as Associate members.

The North Caledonian League is a bit complicated...

The North of Scotland FA is an Affiliated SFA association, in much the same way as the 8 other Senior county FAs. The North Caledonian League is a recognised Senior league, along side the Aberdeenshire League, the mainstream non-leagues and the national set-ups. The North Caledonian FA's competitions are also recognised by the Scottish FA.

On paper it has the same status as the Highland, East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues...

[Lossie Loon]

Scottish football as a whole is a bit complicated, never mind the NCL. I sometimes thimk there are more anomalies than things that make sense.

[cmontheloknow]

Here's the full proposal:

First round: 18 ties, 36 teams made up as follows:
14 teams who previously competed in north qualifying cup
18 teams who previously competed in south qualifying cup
4 junior teams (three Superleague winners and Scottish Cup winner from
previous season).

Second round: 16 ties, 32 teams made up as follows:
18 first round winners (from above)
2 highland league teams (the previous season's champions and
runnners-up)
1 south of scotland team (the previous season's champions)
1 east of scotland team (the previous season's champions)
10 SFL Third Division teams from previous season.

Third round: 16 ties, 32 teams made up as follows:
16 second round winners (from above)
10 SFL Second Division teams from previous season.
6 SFL First Division teams (sides finishing 5th to 10th the previous
season)

Fourth round: 16 ties, 32 teams made up as follows:
16 third round winners (from above)
4 SFL First Division teams (sides finishing 1st to 4th the previous
season)
12 SPL teams.

Fifth round: 8 ties, 16 teams, being the 16 fourth round winners.
Quarter-finals, semis and final as before.

[HibeeJibee]

cmontheloknow, on May 1 2007, 00:01, said:

Here's the full proposal:

First round: 18 ties, 36 teams made up as follows:
14 teams who previously competed in north qualifying cup
18 teams who previously competed in south qualifying cup
4 junior teams (three Superleague winners and Scottish Cup winner from
previous season).

Second round: 16 ties, 32 teams made up as follows:
18 first round winners (from above)
2 highland league teams (the previous season's champions and
runnners-up)
1 south of scotland team (the previous season's champions)
1 east of scotland team (the previous season's champions)
10 SFL Third Division teams from previous season.

Third round: 16 ties, 32 teams made up as follows:
16 second round winners (from above)
10 SFL Second Division teams from previous season.
6 SFL First Division teams (sides finishing 5th to 10th the previous
season)

Fourth round: 16 ties, 32 teams made up as follows:
16 third round winners (from above)
4 SFL First Division teams (sides finishing 1st to 4th the previous
season)
12 SPL teams.

Fifth round: 8 ties, 16 teams, being the 16 fourth round winners.
Quarter-finals, semis and final as before.

So essentially speaking, if we were to summarise this in a 'pocket-sized' style edition:

First Round (October): Most non-league seniors, and junior qualifiers
Second Round (November): Top 4 non-league seniors, 10 SFL Third Division
Third Round (December): 10 SFL Second Division, 6 SFL First Division
Fourth Round (January): Top 4 SFL First Division, all SPL
Remaining rounds in (Feb), (Mar), (Apr), (May)

- I don't really agree with SFL Second Division enterting a round further on
- I find it odd that the top 4 SFL First Division enter a round further on than the rest
- Was this format not abandoned in the 1950s after having proved an abject failure?
- Does scrapping the Qualifying Cups not take some lifeblood away from some sides?
- Are the junior qualifiers going to have to formally join the SFA in order to compete?

Also, as in the 1950s are there any plans to reform the Scottish Supplementary Cups?

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 01 May 2007 - 01:29

[cmontheloknow]

HibeeJibee, on May 1 2007, 02:26, said:

So essentially speaking, if we were to summarise this in a 'pocket-sized' style edition:

First Round (October): Most non-league seniors, and junior qualifiers
Second Round (November): Top 4 non-league seniors, 10 SFL Third Division
Third Round (December): 10 SFL Second Division, 6 SFL First Division
Fourth Round (January): Top 4 SFL First Division, all SPL
Remaining rounds in (Feb), (Mar), (Apr), (May)

- I don't really agree with SFL Second Division enterting a round further on
- I find it odd that the top 4 SFL First Division enter a round further on than the rest
- Was this format not abandoned in the 1950s after having proved an abject failure?
- Does scrapping the Qualifying Cups not take some lifeblood away from some sides?
- Are the junior qualifiers going to have to formally join the SFA in order to compete?

Also, as in the 1950s are there any plans to reform the Scottish Supplementary Cups?

Re: points one and two, that is your opinion. If the delegates at the SFA AGM agree or disagree with you on either point, they'll make it known.

In the 1950s travel was not funded. This time there is prize money which will cover costs should there be a journey involved.

I really don't see why you hold the Qualifying Cups in such regard. The South Qualifying Cup doesn't exactly get the punters out as it is, with finals within the last 5 years on occasion failing to attract over 250 people.

The 1st Round will effectively be a Qualifying Cup. The new proposal shares the sponsorship money more evenly.

The Junior qualifiers will not be joining the SFA, just as the South and East of Scotland sides who might win their division but not be Full or Associate members won't be upgrading their status at the SFA. Criteria for Associate membership is prohibitive to Junior club finances. New Associate members have to for example run a youth team. Pollok at one time ran an U21 team but costs and lack of support saw it go down the tubes.

SFA rules state that a team can only be a member of one national association. Girvan are currently in two. I suppose a precedent has been set to have dual membership, but I think it's more likely to have some kind of rationalisation of legislation than a flurry of dual members.

This post has been edited by cmontheloknow: 01 May 2007 - 06:37

[HibeeJibee]

I agree the AGM could decide on a hybrid model. However, I just don't see what was wrong with the old plan to let the Qualifying Cup quarter-finalists and the 4 Juniors in. It kept the competition relatively simple (20 SFL Second and Third join 12 qualifiers in R1, winners join 12 SPL and 10 SFL First in R3) and to me, replacing this with a system which has teams entering in four consecutive rounds, with rather odd systems of differing points of entry in the same division, and won't really improve the number of non-leaguers reaching later rounds, is flawed.

Also I take it if a full member - i.e. Spartans - win the East of Scotland League for instance, they get into R2 and the highest finishing non-member that season gets into R1? My other issue is: as you say, currently juniors and senior non-members don't join the SFA because of the stricte ground criteria etc. So where exactly are they going to be playing their matches?

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 01 May 2007 - 09:39

[Lossie Loon]

HibeeJibee, on May 1 2007, 10:39, said:

However, I just don't see what was wrong with the old plan to let the Qualifying Cup quarter-finalists and the 4 Juniors in. It kept the competition relatively simple

Simple or not, the Senior clubs kept out of the Scottish Cup by falling at the Qualifying Cup hurdle would not take kindly to non-member clubs (i.e. Juniors) participating. The SFA is duty-bound to look after its own members first before getting non-members involved.

[HibeeJibee]

Lossie Loon, on May 1 2007, 10:57, said:

Simple or not, the Senior clubs kept out of the Scottish Cup by falling at the Qualifying Cup hurdle would not take kindly to non-member clubs (i.e. Juniors) participating. The SFA is duty-bound to look after its own members first before getting non-members involved.

OK point taken. So why not have the current 16 teams who enter the Northern Qualifying cup joined by 4 Northern Juniors, KO format = 20-10-5 Qualify for Scottish Cup, and the current 20 teams who enter the Southern Qualifying Cup joined by 4 Western Juniors and 4 Eastern Juniors, KO format = 28-14-7 Qualify for Scottish Cup. Then these 12 sides join the 20 SFL Second & Third Divisions sides in the First Round?

I just think it demeans the tournament to make it disorganised and somewhat haphazard.

[Lossie Loon]

I think your suggestion is even more disorganised. Personally I would keep the Juniors out of the equation until there are proper moves towards the unification of the SFA and the Junior FA.

As for the Scottish Cup, I would have it done in the style of the Junior Cup with all members being equal regardless of them being Celtic or Burntisland Shipyard.

[HibeeJibee]

Only problem is there aren't really any fixture days available for starting with SPL sides back in September or October. I actually agree with your point on keeping the Juniors out: if they want to have their own FA and not join the SFA, then stay in their own cup. I was of the opinion at the time that Girvan should be thrown out of the SFA - shouldn't be member of both.

On the subject of unification of SFA and SJFA (and SAFA? and SWFA? and SWF? and SYFA? and SSFA? and regional FAs?) - for those of you who remember my pyramid proposal, where all juniors and seniors join together, my Scottish Cup would have been reformed as follows:
- (July) Qualifying 1 120 district sides, 8 Scottish Amateurs enter = 128
- (August) Qualifying 2 96 district and regional sides enter = 160
- (September) Qualifying 3 = 80
- (October) Qualifying 4 = 40
- (November) Qualifying 5 = 20
- December Scottish Cup 1 10 qualifiers, 30 SFL sides enter = 40
- January Scottish Cup 2 12 SPL sides enter = 32
- February Scottish Cup 3 = 16
- March Scottish Cup 4 = 8
- April Scottish Cup SF = 4
- May Scottish Cup FINAL = 2

The Qualifying stage works in 4 regional zones until the round of 20.
Sides KO in the July round fall into the Consolation Cup (in 4 regional zones until SFs).
Sides KO in the August round join winners of the first round of the Consolation Cup, and 8 Scottish Amateur and 8 Development Selects, in the Supplementary Cup (in 4 regional zones until SFs). In all round bar SFs/Finals of all cups, replays are held 10 days after the first tie.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 01 May 2007 - 10:54

[cmontheloknow]

HibeeJibee, on May 1 2007, 10:39, said:

My other issue is: as you say, currently juniors and senior non-members don't join the SFA because of the stricte ground criteria etc. So where exactly are they going to be playing their matches?

It is proposed that ground criteria will be relaxed for the Scottish Cup. An enclosed ground is the basic requirement. Floodlights not needed. If an enclosed ground is not possible, option to move to the nearest eligible ground to be permitted.

[HibeeJibee]

cmontheloknow, on May 1 2007, 16:46, said:

It is proposed that ground criteria will be relaxed for the Scottish Cup. An enclosed ground is the basic requirement. Floodlights not needed. If an enclosed ground is not possible, option to move to the nearest eligible ground to be permitted.

That's fair enough. After all, the current rules only require:

"(B ) Spectators must be separated from the field of play by a wall, a rope, a railing or a fence." and that the club has suitable goals, balls, corner flags and nets. Together with a guarentee the ground will be available for use on the date intimated, unless the weather proves bad enough for postponement. So actually a public park would do!!

I think we also need to remember that most of the Junior teams will fail to make it through their ties, and are certainly unlikely to reach the round where SPL etc. enter.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 01 May 2007 - 16:28

[cmontheloknow]

HibeeJibee, on May 1 2007, 17:27, said:

That's fair enough. After all, the current rules only require:

"(B ) Spectators must be separated from the field of play by a wall, a rope, a railing or a fence." and that the club has suitable goals, balls, corner flags and nets. Together with a guarentee the ground will be available for use on the date intimated, unless the weather proves bad enough for postponement. So actually a public park would do!!

I think we also need to remember that most of the Junior teams will fail to make it through their ties, and are certainly unlikely to reach the round where SPL etc. enter.

Yes, that might be the current rules, but any new SFA Associate member must have an enclosed ground as well as floodlights. The SFA constitution doesn't allow for teams to be booted out for not having a higher standard of ground. The SFA want grounds to improve, and will continue to impose raised ground standards above the basic minimum on those outside the SFA's Full membership.

If this goes through, the Junior entrants have as much chance of winning through to the SPL sides in the 4th Round as any non-league side in the 1st Round draw. I'd wager that Pollok would beat Spartans, for example. We've got players in our squad who've played 1st team games in the SPL. They've got a team full of ex-students (11 by my maths) and amateurs.

The proposed entrants this year look highly likely to be Pollok, Linlithgow Rose (who'll most likely win the league/Junior Cup double and thus a place will be lost) and Culter. I'd fancy Lok and Linlithgow to do ok. Culter might struggle.

[HibeeJibee]

cmontheloknow, on May 1 2007, 18:20, said:

The proposed entrants this year look highly likely to be Pollok, Linlithgow Rose (who'll most likely win the league/Junior Cup double and thus a place will be lost) and Culter. I'd fancy Lok and Linlithgow to do ok. Culter might struggle.

Would they not admit the East SuperLeague runners-up (Bonnyrigg......?) if Linlithgow won both? That would seem to be the fair solution a la the Charity Shield etc. I have to go with you on this one, although I've never seen Pollok in the flesh you get a good press and seem decent quality going by YouTube footage!! I think you may find Spartans, Edinburgh City and Annan tough nuts to crack, dito the major Highland sides, but unless you're unlucky I would anticipate a decent chance of advancing a few rounds. I would anticipate Culter falling early though. Btw how do you think you'd measure up v Third Divisions sides? East Stirling, Albion, Elgin are all very poor just now, in fact I'd hazard a guess the poorest quality at the bottom seen for many seasons.

[cmontheloknow]

HibeeJibee, on May 1 2007, 18:29, said:

Would they not admit the East SuperLeague runners-up (Bonnyrigg......?) if Linlithgow won both? That would seem to be the fair solution a la the Charity Shield etc. I have to go with you on this one, although I've never seen Pollok in the flesh you get a good press and seem decent quality going by YouTube footage!! I think you may find Spartans, Edinburgh City and Annan tough nuts to crack, dito the major Highland sides, but unless you're unlucky I would anticipate a decent chance of advancing a few rounds. I would anticipate Culter falling early though. Btw how do you think you'd measure up v Third Divisions sides? East Stirling, Albion, Elgin are all very poor just now, in fact I'd hazard a guess the poorest quality at the bottom seen for many seasons.

The Scottish Cup places are not open to runners-up in any of the competitions. If one sides wins their League and the Junior Cup, a place is lost.

I don't know for sure how Lok would measure up against Senior league opposition. We occasionally play friendlies against Senior opposition but it's not that reflective as our pre-season fixture list is not allowed to start until the 3rd Saturday in July. In theory that can be as late as the 21st. The Senior league season sometimes starts less than 2 weeks later. Fixtness levels are therefore incomparible in that situation.

We played Dumbarton in July 2004 at Newlandsfield. Their team that night was: Terry Magennis, Craig McEwan, Craig Brittain (sub 60 for Ryan Borris), James McKinstrey, Derek Allan, Barry Donald (sub 45 for Mark Bradley), Robert Dunn (sub 45 for Iain Russell), Paul Ronald, Gordon Herd (sub 45 for Steven Bonar), Andy Rodgers (sub 60 for Chris Boyle), John Dillon. Not used: John Wight.

We beat them 3-0. The only men missing for them who played a major part in their side that season were Ian Dobbins and keeper Stephen Grindlay. The lad Magennis was a trialist.

This year we got beat 3-1 by Stranraer's 1st team and lost 2-1 to an Alloa XI. We just weren't far enough down our own schedule to compete with the former, they played at a pace beyond us, and we then put out a very weak side of fringers against Alloa in a bid to move on a couple of retained players that were out of contract.

We played Stenhousemuir Reserves in a friendly a few weeks ago, but only 12 Lok players out of 21 turned up due to a number of things such as work, so again no proper comparison could be made. We were beaten 5-3 with both sides defending in a manner best left to Sunday league.

[HibeeJibee]

Tell me btw, do the juniors West still have an gate price cap - either a minimum or a maximum?

[boardroomshuffler]

East Fife beat Kelty 8-1 about 6 weeks ago are they not in the final?

[cmontheloknow]

boardroomshuffler, on May 1 2007, 19:00, said:

East Fife beat Kelty 8-1 about 6 weeks ago are they not in the final?

Yeah, Kelty got to the final. Their route there was mixed bag. They beat Burghead Thistle 14-0, put Whitburn out after a replay, then thrashed Broughty Athletic, beat Kilsyth 2-1, Lanark 1-0 and the Buffs 3-0.

Their forgettable debut on astroturf, against East Fife at Ochilview, I'm sure raised a smile or two at Burghead!