bk1962 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 I have been following junior football now for a couple of years now. I've not followed one team in particular but attending various games across the west of Scotland when I've been free. I've chosen to do so, simply because the standard of the senior game in scotland is not at a level that paying the entry prices represent value for money. I have become somewhat impressed and genuinely interested in the junior game. Teams like Talbot, Cummnock, Troon, East Kilbride, Shotts, Pollok, Arthurlie and Clydebank have all been very impressive over the years. Some with great squads and some woth shocking facilities. Although its not unusual and perhaps expected across all leagues at all levels but I've noticed the large gulf between the clubs at the top to those of the bottom of junior leagues. I am not affiliated to any club specifically and have no knowledge of the inner workings but I'm always impressed by some of the clubs, coaches, grounds and players I've witnessed over the years and this is has had me wondering for a while now, how clubs at this level manage to operate? Where do they get their incomes from? (Some attendances are fairly poor) How can they afford a wage structure? (With some ex-senior players in the game and the rumour mill in full flow, it would seem some clubs have a lot more cash available to them) What sort of outgoings do they usually have? (I imagine there would be a considerable weekly expenditure for clubs) I have seen through various posts in this forum that there is always talk about the need for a good committee? What is the importance of a good committee?What makes a good committee? How many members are required and what sort of roles and responsibilities do they hold? This is all thought provoking and interesting stuff to me and wondered if anyone has the time, to please pop a few replies to give me food for thought. Based on previous threads I expect to hear some very useful information from some very knowledgeable people. Any advice would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 When was the last time East Kilbride did anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTPAISLEY Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Sectional league cup back in 2003, but back in 1983 they won the junior cup, evening times, and the sectional league cup. Further back winning the west of Scotland in 1974. Up until 2012 they were also playing in the super first. Not the greatest of achievements but better than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Income from gates and matchday activities (programmes, club shop, pie stall), sponsorship (this is what makes the difference IMO between top and bottom levels), fundraising (lucky numbers etc). Expenditure will vary but its not just wages etc - rates and bills need to be paid too. A 'good committee' will make the most of any sensible commercial opportunity and not risk the future of the club by gambling. The Pollok committee is six office bearers and a maximum of 24 back benchers, some of whom have responsibiity for park maintenance, others things like the shop, hospitality, programme, website, fundraising, cleaning up after games, and those not on the ground staff will do gates on a rota, 3/4 per match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Sectional league cup back in 2003, but back in 1983 they won the junior cup, evening times, and the sectional league cup. Further back winning the west of Scotland in 1974. Up until 2012 they were also playing in the super first. Not the greatest of achievements but better than I thought. My point was, I think he has his East Kilbrides mixed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightwelsh78 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Hi taking a mid table super league 1st club as an example. Your turnover would be about £50,000 per annum with a wage a players and staff wage bill of between £600 - £1000 per week (bearing in mind players don't get paid in the close season). Most clubs will get 50-75% of income from match days with the rest coming from sponsors and fund raising events. Maybe around £1000 a season for shirt & £150-£300 per season for ad boards & £50 per season for ad in the match programme. Club committees (some have match & commercial) will arrange a number of events (race nights, dances etc) throughout the season to raise additional funds to support day to day running of club. You do get clubs who have a 'sugar daddy' were an individual(s) or organisation(s) will put money into the club on a regular or adhoc basis. Some money is also raised from player transfers but generally most fees would relatively small amounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk1962 Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 My point was, I think he has his East Kilbrides mixed up.Not as such. I wasn't really referring to them as a successful club, per say. More impressed by a good team performance in one specific match back in March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk1962 Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 Income from gates and matchday activities (programmes, club shop, pie stall), sponsorship (this is what makes the difference IMO between top and bottom levels), fundraising (lucky numbers etc). Expenditure will vary but its not just wages etc - rates and bills need to be paid too. A 'good committee' will make the most of any sensible commercial opportunity and not risk the future of the club by gambling. The Pollok committee is six office bearers and a maximum of 24 back benchers, some of whom have responsibiity for park maintenance, others things like the shop, hospitality, programme, website, fundraising, cleaning up after games, and those not on the ground staff will do gates on a rota, 3/4 per match. Thanks for that info, certainly can see some gate revenues for some teams be quite good but a lot of games I witnessed this season alone had crowds of less than 60 people there. Are there likely to be average attendances for most clubs or just sporadic? And in terms of match day programs, the expenditure must be greater than the income on most weeks if the attendances aren't as predictable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lang Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Normal crowds for most lower league clubs,but they have very few costs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANKIEBILL Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 You have as many variations on how a club is run as you have clubs tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Normal crowds for most lower league clubs,but they have very few costs Costs for electricity, rates, insurance etc are just the same regardless of what division you play in. The big difference is of course what you pay the players, and how you can offset that cost via sponsorship, gate money, raffle, pie stall, and other match day income, plus a weekly lottery. Clubs with large committee's (and supports) obviously fare better. There are more committee to sell lotteries and to find sponsorship, and of course more of a fan base to tap into, and sell pies to! Smaller clubs generally have smaller committee's and smaller fan bases, meaning fewer people to go after income, and fewer fans to tap into. Player costs are not much more than an Amateur team, expenses only. Crowds of 60-80 are the norm and not the exception these days, some clubs carry a bigger fan base of course and will get into three figures regardless of who they are playing. That's actually no different in the Lowland League where a few clubs breach three figures but the majority don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mantis Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 I would add bar income. At Whitehill it's the biggest single source of income. Getting your home games played on a Saturday in the winter is vital as the bar stays open till night. If you have postponements then you have to play midweek and everybody buggers off half an hour after the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Are there likely to be average attendances for most clubs or just sporadic? And in terms of match day programs, the expenditure must be greater than the income on most weeks if the attendances aren't as predictable? You get an idea of your own team's regular crowd - the main varables to consider are the opposition and potential for neutrals to see the game as an attractive proposition. It's a case of judging it according to who you're playing - if you're playing a poorly-supported side from miles away in a 6.45pm kickoff on a Monday, you obviously run off less than you would for a 2pm Saturday game against a well-supported side from nearby. It's also better to err on the side of caution, as it's better selling out and leaving one or two latecomers disappointed than going balls-out and being left with 30 copies unsold - even then you occasionally get it wrong. I'd also add that if there's even any possibility of issuing a programme that ultimately costs the club money maybe they should be rethinking doing one at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Albert Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 What makes a good committee is sticking by your team through thick and thin not glory hunters, spending your own time looking for sponsorship fund raising. Attending pointless meetings at Hampden so you don't get fined £50. Looking after your players the best you can not promising things you cant keep. Not getting frustrated dealing with councils or when you don't get enough people through the gate to pay the referee. The newer junior clubs coming into league likes of Gartcairn and Rossvale are more community clubs and this seems to be the way ahead and have committees already in place. They are a breath of fresh air in the juniors despite which some people say on this web site. Success for clubs and committees varies depending on your club our club we want to be competitive and also to survive to play another season. Most junior clubs have a long tradition in there towns or villages which goes back over 100 years in some cases and it is a major responsibility to continue this. But most of all they must love their club and stick to it through thick and thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk1962 Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 I can't imagine too many clubs will be in operation as a full business? Would that be fair to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlowe Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 A major clue is in the name ... Club. It is not primarily a business and certainly not designed to generate a year-end profit - all available income is spent on staff and facilities. Its function as an organisation is to operate as a football team at a semi-professional level and that is why it handles money, in and out, and that is also why it relies on donations and sponsors, much the same as a Charity organisation such as Oxfam who have some paid managers and trainers but 90% of their staff are unpaid volunteers giving their efforts because they believe in the mission of the organisation. The various government departments try to treat Junior Clubs as if they were conventional local businesses and screw them every way they can, Rates, Water Rates, Income Tax deductions from part-time earners, etc! It is highly likely that in the near future a Revised Business Model will need to be applied which evens out the Income/Outgoings for all clubs over say 3 league divisions otherwise massive inequalities will persist giving huge advantages to the Top Ten Biggest Income Generators and those at the bottom of the heap will become defunct. Over a 40 week season a club will need a minimum of £32,000 to survive. A club at the very top will have at least £140,000 per season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasy23 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 How is deducting tax from part time earners screwing clubs? If the player is earning more than 11k per year then he is duty bound to pay tax on his earnings, most players Junior wage is a secondary income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlowe Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Why should donations and sponsors of a social business suffer taxation. Google, Starbucks etc! earn £millions in the UK yet pay no tax on their profits because they arrange to levy management charges to cover the profits from foreign locations. Much trouble at 5am in a big raid by French Government on Google's offices in France because they move French transactions to their European Headquarters in Ireland to avoid paying taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasy23 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Why should donations and sponsors of a social business suffer taxation. Google, Starbucks etc! earn £millions in the UK yet pay no tax on their profits because they arrange to levy management charges to cover the profits from foreign locations. Much trouble at 5am in a big raid by French Government on Google's offices in France because they move French transactions to their European Headquarters in Ireland to avoid paying taxes. Paying tax on their profits is a much different matter from business Rates, Water rates etc. And any employee, social business or not, is liable for income tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlowe Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 I don't plan yet to reveal all the secrets of my future New Business Model for Junior Football Clubs but you can be sure it will be as Cost-efficient as possible and within the laws. Read about the recent Share Issues of Junior Clubs like Irvine Meadow etc! Shareholders are entitled to be paid dividends on their shares. Dividend income is still eligible for the personal allowance. So if next year you had £16,000 in dividend income, the first £11,000 would be covered by the personal allowance and the other £5,000 by the new dividend allowance. As a result, you would pay no tax. There is much more that can be done if the will is there. How many Juniors get paid more than £5,000 by their club ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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