Junior football and the national minimum wage!

[wee bubba]

Question came about following a discussion at a game the other week, concern was raised about the possible impact on lower division clubs in terms of national living wage and what would happen if any player raised the issue with the low pay unit! Nothing more than that.

You're the club secretary are you not so surely you know the answer to that question

[superpollok]

Question came about following a discussion at a game the other week, concern was raised about the possible impact on lower division clubs in terms of national living wage and what would happen if any player raised the issue with the low pay unit! Nothing more than that.

Fair enough, apologies. On here there are so many who try to stir shit it's hard to tell who isn't. So as I said apologies for doubting your intentions

[WaffenThinMint]

I can see a return to the old brown envelopes slipped under the table if this came to pass

 

A return????

[Marlowe]

Aye and they're pretty obvious. You need to sign a contract with a club. That stops you playing for other clubs. There are zero ways of spinning that as not being an employee.

They are NOT Employed by the Club.  They are independent contractors.   They can agree with HMRC to deal with their own Income Tax and National Insurance or allow the Club to make an agreed deduction and pay it to the HMRC on their behalf. The National Minimum Wage does not apply. https://www.gov.uk/business-legal-structures/unincorporated-association

https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

 

If a self-employed person contracted to paint a wall on a specific Saturday afternoon he can't paint anyone else's wall at that time simply because he can't be in two places simultaneously.  Therefore his contract does not need to specify exclusivity.

[theesel1994]

If a self-employed person contracted to paint a wall on a specific Saturday afternoon he can't paint anyone else's wall at that time simply because he can't be in two places simultaneously.  Therefore his contract does not need to specify exclusivity.

 

This self-employed person can take on employees and these employees can do the work.

Can you say the same for your "independent contractor" players - can they arrange for someone else to do the work?

[Deadly]

They are NOT Employed by the Club. They are independent contractors. They can agree with HMRC to deal with their own Income Tax and National Insurance or allow the Club to make an agreed deduction and pay it to the HMRC on their behalf. The National Minimum Wage does not apply. https://www.gov.uk/business-legal-structures/unincorporated-association

https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

If a self-employed person contracted to paint a wall on a specific Saturday afternoon he can't paint anyone else's wall at that time simply because he can't be in two places simultaneously. Therefore his contract does not need to specify exclusivity.

To be self employed in the eyes of HMRC you need to meet certain criteria based on the role you are doing. One of the criteria is setting your own work plan, so being told where and when to be by a club contradicts this, as they are dictating where and when you should carry out your work (training and games).

Being provided club (employer) kit (training and match days) is also another contradiction to being self employed.

There are other criteria too and I'm fairly certain players being self employed isn't a workable option.

[cmontheloknow]

It was the case in past that players were considered self employed but HMRC didn't appreciate the lack of tax returns, hence enforced introduction of PAYE at some clubs c2004

[cotter]

Would nt,make a difference at ants 0 hour contract,,,

[HTG]

If a self-employed person contracted to paint a wall on a specific Saturday afternoon he can't paint anyone else's wall at that time simply because he can't be in two places simultaneously. Therefore his contract does not need to specify exclusivity.

Of course they are employed in a situation where they are remunerated as part of a contract. To extend your analogy, to be self employed Tommy Coyne would need to be in a position to schedule painting a wall at Linlithgow Rose and then Bo'ness the next week and then Auchinleck the week after that. If he is constrained for 2 years so that he can only paint the same wall then he's contracted and employed. There is no question that a contract of employment exists in football. Otherwise every single footballer on the planet is self employed. There is absolutely no difference between paying a player at Linlithgow Rose or paying one at Ross County.

Whether any minimum wage criteria applies is not something that has been tested but it doesn't mean there won't be a challenge at some stage depending on what the agreed number of hours the player is contacted to commit to.

[Marlowe]

Government Guide to determining Employment status: CONTROL over what is done

Example 1

Painter A is taken on by a company which has a contract to decorate the interior of an office block which is undergoing an extensive programme of refurbishment. The worker has been taken on as a painter and his contract with the company is to provide painting services as directed. During the first week the worker paints rooms on the ground floor of the building. The company switches Painter A to another site during the second week where it has another contract. In the third week Painter A is told to return to the original office building where decorating work can now start on the second floor. In this case the engager has control over what the worker does at any particular time. This is a pointer towards employment.

Example 2

Painter B is taken on by the same company with the contract to decorate the office block. He contracts with the company to paint all of the offices on the third floor. The work is to be completed within 3 weeks. It is up to Painter B to decide what work he is going to do in order to fulfil this contract and the company cannot tell him to stop and paint another part of the building instead. In this case there is no control over what is to be done which points to self-employment.

Example 3

Painter C is the third worker to be taken on to paint the office block. He contracts with the company to paint all of the offices on the fourth floor. The work is to be completed within 3 weeks. 2 weeks into the job the company asks him to paint part of the fifth floor, which Painter C agrees to do but for extra money.

Because the original contract was specifically to paint the fourth floor, the company did not have the right to instruct Painter C to carry out this additional work. Instead, Painter C has voluntarily agreed to undertake the additional work for an additional fee under a new and separate contract. The original contract to paint the fourth floor is still effective and he must complete that work within the agreed time scale. Again, the company has no control over what is to be done and the contractual arrangements point towards self-employment.

[santheman]

Have they finished the office block yet. I'm looking for someone to do my staircase and landing

[HTG]

Government Guide to determining Employment status: CONTROL over what is done

Example 1 Painter A is taken on by a company which has a contract to decorate the interior of an office block which is undergoing an extensive programme of refurbishment. The worker has been taken on as a painter and his contract with the company is to provide painting services as directed. During the first week the worker paints rooms on the ground floor of the building. The company switches Painter A to another site during the second week where it has another contract. In the third week Painter A is told to return to the original office building where decorating work can now start on the second floor. In this case the engager has control over what the worker does at any particular time. This is a pointer towards employment. Example 2 Painter B is taken on by the same company with the contract to decorate the office block. He contracts with the company to paint all of the offices on the third floor. The work is to be completed within 3 weeks. It is up to Painter B to decide what work he is going to do in order to fulfil this contract and the company cannot tell him to stop and paint another part of the building instead. In this case there is no control over what is to be done which points to self-employment. Example 3 Painter C is the third worker to be taken on to paint the office block. He contracts with the company to paint all of the offices on the fourth floor. The work is to be completed within 3 weeks. 2 weeks into the job the company asks him to paint part of the fifth floor, which Painter C agrees to do but for extra money. Because the original contract was specifically to paint the fourth floor, the company did not have the right to instruct Painter C to carry out this additional work. Instead, Painter C has voluntarily agreed to undertake the additional work for an additional fee under a new and separate contract. The original contract to paint the fourth floor is still effective and he must complete that work within the agreed time scale. Again, the company has no control over what is to be done and the contractual arrangements point towards self-employment.

Thanks for this. It clearly demonstrates why footballers are employees.

[lang]

But who was the best painter?

[holsten]

Government Guide to determining Employment status: CONTROL over what is done

Example 1

Painter A is taken on by a company which has a contract to decorate the interior of an office block which is undergoing an extensive programme of refurbishment. The worker has been taken on as a painter and his contract with the company is to provide painting services as directed. During the first week the worker paints rooms on the ground floor of the building. The company switches Painter A to another site during the second week where it has another contract. In the third week Painter A is told to return to the original office building where decorating work can now start on the second floor. In this case the engager has control over what the worker does at any particular time. This is a pointer towards employment. Example 2 Painter B is taken on by the same company with the contract to decorate the office block. He contracts with the company to paint all of the offices on the third floor. The work is to be completed within 3 weeks. It is up to Painter B to decide what work he is going to do in order to fulfil this contract and the company cannot tell him to stop and paint another part of the building instead. In this case there is no control over what is to be done which points to self-employment. Example 3 Painter C is the third worker to be taken on to paint the office block. He contracts with the company to paint all of the offices on the fourth floor. The work is to be completed within 3 weeks. 2 weeks into the job the company asks him to paint part of the fifth floor, which Painter C agrees to do but for extra money. Because the original contract was specifically to paint the fourth floor, the company did not have the right to instruct Painter C to carry out this additional work. Instead, Painter C has voluntarily agreed to undertake the additional work for an additional fee under a new and separate contract. The original contract to paint the fourth floor is still effective and he must complete that work within the agreed time scale. Again, the company has no control over what is to be done and the contractual arrangements point towards self-employment.

 

 

To many Painters

[Marlowe]

Painter 4 decides to play Junior Football but demands £30 per training session and £70 per official game, win, lose or draw.   He tells the club he is Self-Employed and submits his accounts annually in January to the HMRC, so do not deduct PAYE from me.   Does the club agree ?

[Marlowe]

Painter 5 meanwhile ....