Bundesliga Boy Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I'm sure I've read this on here before but how many cup competitions do the EOS teams contest, and what is the order of importance of these cups. (same for South of Scotland if poss since that message board seems to have gone into abeyance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Basically: (1) South Challenge Cup - all LL, EOSL & SOSL clubs (2) EOS Qualifying Cup - all LL & EOSL clubs (except Dalbeattie & Threave) [winners play Berwick in EOS Cup] [Hearts & Hibs play EOS Shield] (3) King Cup - all EOSL clubs including reserves (4) EOS League Cup - qualifiers from EOS Qualifying League + Alex Jack Cup - EOSL clubs not in Scottish Cup (1) South Challenge Cup - all LL, EOSL & SOSL clubs (2) Southern Counties Cup - all SOSL clubs, Dalbeattie & Threave, Annan QotS & Stranraer (3) SOS League Cup - all SOSL clubs (4) Potts Cup - as above (5) Cree Lodge Cup - as above (6) Haig Gordon Cup - as above (7) Tweedie Cup - as above (+ Detriot Trophy - 'Overall Championship' incorporating league + cup results) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundesliga Boy Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Basically: (1) South Challenge Cup - all LL, EOSL & SOSL clubs (2) EOS Qualifying Cup - all LL & EOSL clubs (except Dalbeattie & Threave) [winners play Berwick in EOS Cup] [Hearts & Hibs play EOS Shield] (3) King Cup - all EOSL clubs including reserves (4) EOS League Cup - qualifiers from EOS Qualifying League + Alex Jack Cup - EOSL clubs not in Scottish Cup (1) South Challenge Cup - all LL, EOSL & SOSL clubs (2) Southern Counties Cup - all SOSL clubs, Dalbeattie & Threave, Annan QotS & Stranraer (3) SOS League Cup - all SOSL clubs (4) Potts Cup - as above (5) Cree Lodge Cup - as above (6) Haig Gordon Cup - as above (7) Tweedie Cup - as above (+ Detriot Trophy - 'Overall Championship' incorporating league + cup results) Was hoping you'd be in touch, much appreciated. Seems a lot of competitions, which can't help the massive fixture backlog for a number of teams in both leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Not sure that conclusion is particularly correct, tbh. In the EOSL they only play 1 more cup than the Lowland League, Highland League or East Junior clubs - the clubs play 28 league games, 3 qualifying league games = 31, plus their cups. However unlike the LL or HL the season goes on into May. Remember that few of them progress in the 2 "shared" cups, and half of them don't qualify for the EOS League Cup (played midweek this season anyway) - for many teams the King Cup is their only realistic chance at a cup run. Likes of Duns, Eyemouth or LTHV have lots of games in hand due to their parks being unplayable for months on end - and Scottish Cup run in LTHV's case. Each of them has only won 2 or 3 cup-ties all season - again expecting LTHV's Scottish Cup run. Only CSS's backlog is really attributable to cups. In the SOS League it does seem rather excessive having 7 cups, with 6 of them being SOSL clubs only and all of the same format. However that's the way they do things down there. Remember they only have 26 league games and no qualifying league competition so cup tournaments arguably fill out the season. Their league is going to be finished in April - some clubs are 1 game from finishing; furthest behind only has 8 games left. During periods with 30+ league games, they've played some cups in alternate seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundesliga Boy Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Not sure that conclusion is particularly correct, tbh. In the EOSL they only play 1 more cup than the Lowland League, Highland League or East Junior clubs - the clubs play 28 league games, 3 qualifying league games = 31, plus their cups. However unlike the LL or HL the season goes on into May. Remember that few of them progress in the 2 "shared" cups, and half of them don't qualify for the EOS League Cup (played midweek this season anyway) - for many teams the King Cup is their only realistic chance at a cup run. Likes of Duns, Eyemouth or LTHV have lots of games in hand due to their parks being unplayable for months on end - and Scottish Cup run in LTHV's case. Each of them has only won 2 or 3 cup-ties all season - again expecting LTHV's Scottish Cup run. Only CSS's backlog is really attributable to cups. In the SOS League it does seem rather excessive having 7 cups, with 6 of them being SOSL clubs only and all of the same format. However that's the way they do things down there. Remember they only have 26 league games and no qualifying league competition so cup tournaments arguably fill out the season. Their league is going to be finished in April - some clubs are 1 game from finishing, and the furthest behind only has 8 games left. Backlogs notwithstanding, that amount of cups doesn't make sense. 7 in the SOS is more than excessive, padding out season or not. And the fact that Newton Stewart have one league game to go whilst teams like Upper Annandale and Nithsdale have as you say "only" eight games to play, tells its own story. Were it not for the fact that we are used to more than 8 games in hand being the norm in junior football for example, this in itself would surely be an anomoly. Sadly until more convert to 3g, this will be the future - ie calculator required to try and work out league tables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Well, sorry, I don't see you can say 4 cups "doesn't make sense" when you consider the background situation. It's not 4 cups that they tend to go on multiple runs in. Granted 7 is maybe different. Do they not play 4 cups (plus Cup-Winners Cup) in West Juniors? Also, as you allude yourself, the difference in league games played isn't due to cups. Here are totals for all EOS League clubs in all cups this season. Variables are due to King Cup being at QF stage & League Cup being at SF stage. However, as I mentioned the League Cup QFs & SFs have been played on midweek... If you discount that then the majority are playing 3 cups, and the Scottish Cup makes 4, and most of them don't progress far in 3 of them. SC/ SCC EQC KC LC Total AJC Burntisland 1 1 1 1 = 4 Civil SS 2 3 4 1 1 = 11 Coldstream 1 1 1 1 1 = 5 Craigroyston 1 1 2 1 1 = 6 Duns 2 2 1 2-4 1 = 8-10 Eyemouth 3 1 1 1 = 6 Hawick 2 1 1 2-4 = 6-8 Heriot-Watt 1 2 1 1 = 5 Leith 3 1 1 2-4 2-3 = 9-12 LTHV 8 2 1 2-4 2-3 = 15-18 Ormiston 1 3 2 2-4 = 8-10 Peebles 1 1 2-4 = 4-6 Spartans EOS 2-4 2-3 = 4-7 Stir Uni EOS 1 = 1 Tynecastle 1 2 2 2-4 2-3 = 9-12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundesliga Boy Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Well, sorry, I don't see you can say 4 cups "doesn't make sense" when you consider the background situation. It's not 4 cups that they tend to go on multiple runs in. Granted 7 is maybe different. Do they not play 4 cups (plus Cup-Winners Cup) in West Juniors? Also, as you allude yourself, the difference in league games played isn't due to cups. Here are totals for all EOS League clubs in all cups this season. Variables are due to King Cup being at QF stage & League Cup being at SF stage. However, as I mentioned the League Cup QFs & SFs have been played on midweek... If you discount that then the majority are playing 3 cups, and the Scottish Cup makes 4, and most of them don't progress far in 3 of them. SC/ SCC EQC KC LC Total AJC Burntisland 1 1 1 1 = 4 Civil SS 2 3 4 1 1 = 11 Coldstream 1 1 1 1 1 = 5 Craigroyston 1 1 2 1 1 = 6 Duns 2 2 1 2-4 1 = 8-10 Eyemouth 3 1 1 1 = 6 Hawick 2 1 1 2-4 = 6-8 Heriot-Watt 1 2 1 1 = 5 Leith 3 1 1 2-4 2-3 = 9-12 LTHV 8 2 1 2-4 2-3 = 15-18 Ormiston 1 3 2 2-4 = 8-10 Peebles 1 1 2-4 = 4-6 Spartans EOS 2-4 2-3 = 4-7 Stir Uni EOS 1 = 1 Tynecastle 1 2 2 2-4 2-3 = 9-12 Even if a club plays in just one round of a cup tournament though, that's a week they could be playing a league game, instead of being 8+ league fixtures behind. European clubs must think its already bizarre that us British clubs play in two national cup competitions, when the rest of Europe only play in 1. I accept that non league Scottish teams have fewer league fixtures but it surely devalues a cup victory when the SOS league has 7 cup competitions including the Detroit Trophy, 8 if u include the actual Scottish Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Lots of European leagues have League Cups, tbf, and you'd be comparing top tiers with non-league. They'd still be 8 games behind because everyone else would be playing league games too? Unless you'd make them take blank weeks. Cups are important in non-league as fewer opportunities for promotion, and most players are playing for enjoyment not money. EOSL has 1 title/promotion playoff slot, no relegation - be a dreary season for many clubs without cups. I'd be inclined to agree with you on 7 being too many - especially 6 the same - but who are we to tell them different... I think the Detroit is a token after-thought, tbf. No table seems to be kept in the public domain... only see it mentioned around the time of their post-season awards dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrooge1928 Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Used to be worse - the Border Cup and the Consolation Cup were dropped because of fixture congestion, while the Paul Shield was played as a knock-out competition for a few seasons. In addition most Edinburgh sides, plus Coldstream, took part in the Amateur Cup. The League Cup and the Alex Jack were instituted since the Border Cup was dropped, but the main improvement in recent years has been the scrapping of multiple cup replays - until the 1960s it was common for cup games to take up so many Saturdays that the League could not always be completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Of course they used to 'double-count' cup-ties as league games, too; having read the Duns FC history that seems to have been going on even into the 1970s. I think the other big difference now is that the cups have a rational structure, and complement each other? LL clubs play the Scottish Cup (nationwide); the South Challenge Cup (region-wide); plus either the EOS Qualifying Cup / Southern Counties Cup (local); with the Lowland League Cup running off the end of the season. EOSL clubs get the same - or Alex Jack Cup instead of Scottish - plus a knockout cup for themselves, the King Cup. Contesting the EOS Qualifying League is also given meaning with its top performers contesting a short - and this season, midweek - EOS League Cup. Not that many years ago the EOS Qualifying Cup, King Cup and EOS League Cup were almost indistinguishable from each other in format and entry. Arguably the only anomaly is the anti-climax EOS Cup itself, just a direct Final involving Berwick. But 1 or 2 promotions to SPFL2 would sort that. Also the precedence of postponed cup-ties over league games has been removed recently, except in South Challenge Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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