LongTimeLurker Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Your English comparison is overly simplistic. Look at the sizes of the clubs playing in national league north(and I thought our league names were stupid) not exactly too dissimilar to lower league spfl, similar sized clubs playing over a similar area. If your angle in all of this is that a club the size of Dunfermline don't belong in a regional setup (at least when they don't implode financially given their natural habitat otherwise is the bottom six of the top tier) then I would agree. Beyond that in per capita terms 420 clubs takes you much further down the English pyramid than tier 6. Scotland has the equivalent of all clubs in England from the top portions of tier 9 up playing at the national level and that takes things down to a much more regional level to setups like the Wessex, North West Counties and Essex Senior Leagues. To me National League North is the equivalent of the couple of larger part-time clubs that usually gatecrash the full-time club party by reaching the second tier in a Scottish context. Even in that context there is often a reluctance amongst clubs in the Newcastle area to get involved above tier 9 due to the travel, so it is often argued that two feeders are not sufficient at tier six to fully accomodate England's geography, because it leads to too many clubs collapsing financially under the strain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 If your angle in all of this is that a club the size of Dunfermline don't belong in a regional setup (at least when they don't implode financially given their natural habitat otherwise is the bottom six of the top tier) then I would agree. Beyond that in per capita terms 420 clubs takes you much further down the English pyramid than tier 6. Scotland has the equivalent of all clubs in England from the top portions of tier 9 up playing at the national level and that takes things down to a much more regional level to setups like the Wessex, North West Counties and Essex Senior Leagues. To me National League North is the equivalent of the couple of larger part-time clubs that usually gatecrash the full-time club party by reaching the second tier in a Scottish context. Even in that context there is often a reluctance amongst clubs in the Newcastle area to get involved above tier 9 due to the travel, so it is often argued that two feeders are not sufficient at tier six to fully accomodate England's geography, because it leads to too many clubs collapsing financially under the strain. Bollocks is national league north full time clubs with some larger part-time clubs. There's no point in a direct population contrast given England doesn't nearly as well translate population bases into fans through the gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Bollocks is national league north full time clubs with some larger part-time clubs. There's no point in a direct population contrast given England doesn't nearly as well translate population bases into fans through the gate. Stockport and FC United are very well supported sides in that league and another small handful gets gates of 1000 +. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr V Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 As we have found out in the Scottish Cup there is much more money available for SFL clubs in the current setup than there is for junior clubs in our setup. Thats one of the main reasons there is great resistance from SFL clubs for any dilution of their position in the current set-up and makes a top to bottom pyramid system a bad deal for their clubs ( who could blame them ?) This is the biggest obstacle to a joined setup in Scottish football. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and very few SFL clubs would vote for wholesale change with bigger risks of cash loss from the SFA/SFL and sponsors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wile E Coyote Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Auchinleck are to date on track to win 4 Superleagues running and 4 out of 6 Junior Cups. There is a long, long way to go before this comes to pass. I don't even understand your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Stockport and FC United are very well supported sides in that league and another small handful gets gates of 1000 +. And plenty get 400- 500, To imply that the majority are able to sustain full time football is absolute nonsense, as it is to suggest they are large pt clubs in a Scottish concept. It far more compares to league 1 than championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 There is a long, long way to go before this comes to pass. I don't even understand your point. Your fellow supporter highlights - perhaps criticises - an apparent lack of competitiveness/sharing around of trophies in Senior football, in contrast to Juniordom. Yet your own club has dominated major Junior silverware more in recent years than any Senior has. It's not restricted to that measure, either: * 7 of 10 Junior Cups have been won by Auchinleck or Linlithgow * 7 of 10 West Superleagues have been won by Auchinleck or Irvine Meadow (2 of remaining 3 by Pollok) * 6 of 10 East Superleagues have been won by Linlithgow or Bo'ness (2 of remaining 4 by Bonnyrigg) * 7 of 10 - actually 9 of 12 - North Superleagues have been won by Culter or Hermes (2 of remaining 3 by Banks o'Dee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Apologies, my mistake. More variety in the East at least. However, the broad point stands - if you can level the 'monopolisation' line at the Seniors, you can at the Juniors too. Indeed with Hibs/Ross County pending the League Cup will have 6 different winners in a row, and the Scottish Cup has 6 out of 7. Overall 10 different winning clubs in 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wile E Coyote Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Your fellow supporter highlights - perhaps criticises - an apparent lack of competitiveness/sharing around of trophies in Senior football, in contrast to Juniordom. Yet your own club has dominated major Junior silverware more in recent years than any Senior has. It's not restricted to that measure, either: * 7 of 10 Junior Cups have been won by Auchinleck or Linlithgow * 7 of 10 West Superleagues have been won by Auchinleck or Irvine Meadow (2 of remaining 3 by Pollok) * 6 of 10 East Superleagues have been won by Linlithgow or Bo'ness (2 of remaining 4 by Bonnyrigg) * 7 of 10 - actually 9 of 12 - North Superleagues have been won by Culter or Hermes (2 of remaining 3 by Banks o'Dee) I agree Junior football has spells where teams dominate but these never last for ever and other teams come to the fore. Five teams have won the West Superleague, thats a decent spread IMO. How about 4 of 13 West Superleagues have been won by Talbot 11 of 129 Junior Cups have been won by Talbot The signs are Talbot are weaker this season and their dominance is about to end. There will be chances for other teams in the coming seasons. Trophies are certainly spread more widely in the Juniors than the seniors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Bollocks is national league north full time clubs with some larger part-time clubs. At no point did I state it was. In per capita terms National League North corresponds to only 2 clubs in a Scottish context. My point was that could be viewed as being equivalent to Alloa and Dumbarton at the moment, who are part-time clubs in a mostly full-time tier 2 division. Stockport and FC United are very well supported sides in that league and another small handful gets gates of 1000 +. Which, if anything, actually bolsters my argument. Because Scotland has the equivalent of over 400 national league clubs in an English context, clubs like Stockport and FC United are at a level that more closely corresponds to tier 2 in Scotland in per capita terms. The valid comparison for clubs like East Stirling and Montrose in SPFL4 is much lower than National League North and that's why there is no huge enthusiasm in junior circles to join the SPFL party. A regional format simply makes much more sense to a lot of people than midweek trips to Elgin or Berwick to play before a few hundred fans, because there are already way too many clubs playing at the national level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Are Gloucester equivalents of tier 2 up here? What about flyde? Bradford park? These direct population comparisons make no sense when actually looking at crowds, surely we need to look at size of clubs to decide what is an appropriate travel distance? Implying we make smaller clubs travel further is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Iceland have 46 clubs playing nationality, using their model(getting to the Euros remember) we should have our top 700 clubs playing nationally, proportionally of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 And so what, where are you going with that? Unless it has escaped your notice we have national divisions named Premiership, Championship, League One and League Two. No prizes for guessing who that was copied from. The problem is we don't have forty two full-time clubs to fill those divisions that genuinely deserve to be playing nationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 That taking a country ignoring any local factors and applying a multiplier and just saying that's what we should do is farcical. We may have taken the league names but I'm not sure what's your point here, should we always 'do what England do?' (Failing to adapt to our own circumstances?) Why does 'do what England do' apply to how many clubs proportionally play nationally, but not to how big of area is it reasonable for clubs of a particular size to cover? Why do clubs need to be full time to 'deserve' to play nationally, what a bizarre criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 If clubs are not professional and are using part-time players it makes more sense to play within reasonable travel distances. Elgin vs Annan as a league fixture four times a season is bonkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 So are we really overly concerned about a journey a team makes for 5% of their games, given they are financially more than able to cope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 They are only able to cope financially due to SPFL and SFA subsidy money generated by TV money they do almost nothing to earn, and meanwhile SPFL3&4 clubs are getting pumped out of the cup by clubs like Linlithgow Rose, Lothian Thistle and EKFC. Four national divisions is a total waste of time driven by delusions of grandeur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 As we have found out in the Scottish Cup there is much more money available for SFL clubs in the current setup than there is for junior clubs in our setup. Thats one of the main reasons there is great resistance from SFL clubs for any dilution of their position in the current set-up and makes a top to bottom pyramid system a bad deal for their clubs ( who could blame them ?) This is the biggest obstacle to a joined setup in Scottish football. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and very few SFL clubs would vote for wholesale change with bigger risks of cash loss from the SFA/SFL and sponsors Unfortunately the voting system imposed a couple of years ago means that a lot of SPFL clubs don't really have much of a say. The votes, rightly or wrongly, have been skewed much more than ever to the teams in the top divisions. Div 2 clubs get almost no voice. If the teams below Div 2 got their act together in terms of an all-encompassing pyramid system, you'd see change, and that change would be imposed on the lower SPFL clubs. A split "non-league" system below Div 2 suits those clubs in terms of retaining the little that they have, but it's not them that are holding a proper pyramid back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr V Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Unfortunately the voting system imposed a couple of years ago means that a lot of SPFL clubs don't really have much of a say. The votes, rightly or wrongly, have been skewed much more than ever to the teams in the top divisions. Div 2 clubs get almost no voice. If the teams below Div 2 got their act together in terms of an all-encompassing pyramid system, you'd see change, and that change would be imposed on the lower SPFL clubs. A split "non-league" system below Div 2 suits those clubs in terms of retaining the little that they have, but it's not them that are holding a proper pyramid back. I was not aware of the voting system but the financial reward of being in the SFL means they won't push for change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Whether you like it or not the money is there. Anger over 'but its SFA cash' isn't going to change that. These clubs can currently more than cover their travel costs, that source of finance isn't likely to disappear, nor it is unavailable to promoted clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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