Shibuya Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Hi guys, As I am sure you are aware, we were recently shopped to the Procurator Fiscal to the Court of the Lord Lyon by an Airdrie supporter for sporting a badge that is in breach of heraldic law for having 1) a Saltire within an enclosed shape and 2) having lettering within an enclosed shape. The law dates back to the 1600s and is one of those ridiculous old laws that has no place in society any more. We are looking to petition our local MP, Corri Wilson and MSP, John Scott to raise this law with the Secretary of State for Culture, John Whittingdale MP. In order to do this we need the backing of as many Scottish football fans as possible, if you are reading this then please take two minutes to sign our petition and help Save The Badge! If you are thinking "why would I help Ayr United?" I can fully understand, however please be aware that over 20 Scottish clubs could be forced to change their badge unless we can get this law changed (I'm looking at you, Albion and Stranraer!) Thank you all! https://www.change.org/p/john-whittingdale-mp-corri-wilson-mp-save-ayr-united-fc-s-badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 What kind of a p***k would you have to be to run and tell on Ayr because of their badge?! It is a ludicrous law. Why does this Lyon arsehole care? Needs a swift boot to the liver and baws. Anyhoo, signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibuya Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 A very bitter arsehole! Thanks for signing mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Oh here is your link in a clickable format; https://www.change.org/p/john-whittingdale-mp-corri-wilson-mp-save-ayr-united-fc-s-badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlukediamond Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 To little to late where were you when airdrieonians were forced to change their badge ! Nowhere that's where. Yes it's an outdated law which yes has no place. But as usual everybody in the country jumping to help everybody else out. When Airdrieonians were going out of business where was the media and the stars then for Airdrie, but when Patrick , Livingston, Dundee dunfermline everybody is falling over themselves to help out. And the bitter arsehole as you put it is probably bitter because Bill Barr the then Ayr United chairman was a huge part In putting airdrieonians to the wall. So everybody sign or don't sign. No skin off my nose. The damage in my eyes has already been done with my clubs badge being changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibuya Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 I signed your petition, go and have a look Scott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callum-ayr Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I'm sure if the law was to be changed, Airdrie would be able to go back to the original badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartcraig Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 As I am sure you are aware, we were recently shopped to the Procurator Fiscal to the Court of the Lord Lyon by an Airdrie supporter for sporting a badge that is in breach of heraldic law for having 1) a Saltire within an enclosed shape and 2) having lettering within an enclosed shape. Not sure I see the point of mentioning that as this juncture unless you're hoping that playing the anti-Airdrie card will net you a few extra signatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeDiamond90 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Not sure I see the point of mentioning that as this juncture unless you're hoping that playing the anti-Airdrie card will net you a few extra signatures. Because it was a d*ck move and probably should be highlighted at every available opportunity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poet of the Macabre Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Don't give a toss about badges. Dunfermline could change ours tomorrow and I wouldn't care one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowden Cowboy Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The anti-Lord Lyon stuff doesn't make me want to sign. We can surely have a petition that seeks to retain part of Scotland's unique history and legal structure but also seeks some middle ground. The Heraldry of Scotland is an important link with the country's past and is another symbol of Scottish identity. Decrying it as anachronistic seems trendy but is probably based on nothing more than 5 minutes thought or research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nipper Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The anti-Lord Lyon stuff doesn't make me want to sign. We can surely have a petition that seeks to retain part of Scotland's unique history and legal structure but also seeks some middle ground. The Heraldry of Scotland is an important link with the country's past and is another symbol of Scottish identity. Decrying it as anachronistic seems trendy but is probably based on nothing more than 5 minutes thought or research. Too sensible for P & B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitalDiamond Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 It's a fair point Cowden Cowboy. There are people who feel as passionately about heraldry as we all do about football. There should be a role for Heraldry, but I think it would make sense for that to be restricted to individuals, the military and the monarchy and other such walks of life and for enforcement powers to be proportionate. For corporate entities the Trade Mark Register is better placed to deal with such matters. The register of all Arms and Bearings is essentially an ancient form of Trade Mark Register. To register a Trade Mark will cost you about £100 and your mark is instantly searchable (at no cost) online. To register you arms, you have to pay circa £3,000. For that it will be hand painted on 2 pieces of calf skin. One will be sent out to you to put up on the wall and the other will be added to the register. If I wanted to see an entry in the register e.g. Queen's Park's Badge, I would have to go to pop along to the office in Edinburgh during the correct hours and pay £15 for the privilege http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/230.html?pParentID=217 (in case anyone's looking for a day out). The Lord Lyon has his own Procurator Fiscal and heraldry is dealt with as a criminal matter. Any hearings would be in the Lyon Court. A criminal prosecution should only be brought if it is in the public interest. I fail to see why that would be the case with regard to the badges of Sports Clubs, Schools or even companies. If such prosecutions are in the public interest, why not raise actions against every other football club concerned? Unless the law is changed, other badges are essentially sitting ducks and given the precedent of Formartine and Ayr, it will only take one individual (who can act anonymously) to raise the Guillotine. I also take offence at the fact that the 1592 Act which gives the power to prosecute in respect of "The common sort of people not worthy by the law". Are we all serfs and vassals? In fairness, anyone with a spare 3 grand is likely to be granted arms and so that's not the way its enforced, but it would point to a consideration of the underlying law being due. Our own petition, which Ayr would have done well just to take over and give themselves a 1,500 signature head start, was looking for protection for Scottish Football Club badges. In the same way as some horrific 70s buildings are protected by being listed, we hoped the Lord Lyon's office (and Procurator Fiscal) would recognise historic football badges (even if in their eyes they constitute "bad heraldry"). There are of course far more important things to worry about in the world. Until the 1950s most clubs didn't bother with badges, but I think it's worth taking 30 seconds out of your life to add your name. It's a just cause and it can't do any harm. I did enjoy the fact that in the same post Shibuya (justifiably) pinned the blame on an Airdrie supporter before pointing the finger at Albion Rovers and Stranraer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowdenConvert Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Are we all serfs. If you're from Airdrie it's highly likely TBF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowden Cowboy Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 It is an interesting debate - There are of course many corporate bodies who have already gone to the time and expense of obtaining their own heraldic symbols. To me there is a need for dialogue and engaging with Lord Lyon's office - after all he is hardly going out of of his way to prosecute offenders - I assume he has been happy to let things go under the radar but really has to act when somebody specifically brings a matter to his attention. A bit of discussion, negotiation, pragmatism might produce a result acceptable to all parties - Scottish football clubs in many cases have had these badges for 50 or 60 years or even more and they have been in common usage - I would question whether there was a prescriptive period for Lord Lyon taking such action after all these years but assume that is not an avenue that would bear fruit. Some accommodation should be possible without throwing the heraldry baby out with the bath water - many other Countries just like Scotland have heraldry laws. Heraldry isn't just analogous to trade marks or copyright or a logo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitalDiamond Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to do just that, but the view taken was that if Football wants to play the heraldry game then it has to play by the rules. I'd encourage you to read the 1592 Act, if only for entertainment's value. It's very short (about half a page) and contains no prescriptive period, only a right for the Lord Lyon to put offenders to the horne. When we met with the Lord Lyon's Clerk (a meeting attended by Alex Neil MSP), she commented that although there were many other organisations out there in the same situation, "we can't be expected to do something about all of them". I suspect that they will not back down unless considerable political pressure comes their way and in that case it will be too late for Airdrie and Ayr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibuya Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 I did enjoy the fact that in the same post Shibuya (justifiably) pinned the blame on an Airdrie supporter before pointing the finger at Albion Rovers and Stranraer! I'm ruling by fear to keep in line with the law in the 1600s! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pesadilla Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Hi guys, As I am sure you are aware, we were recently shopped to the Procurator Fiscal to the Court of the Lord Lyon by an Airdrie supporter for sporting a badge that is in breach of heraldic law for having 1) a Saltire within an enclosed shape and 2) having lettering within an enclosed shape. The law dates back to the 1600s and is one of those ridiculous old laws that has no place in society any more. We are looking to petition our local MP, Corri Wilson and MSP, John Scott to raise this law with the Secretary of State for Culture, John Whittingdale MP. In order to do this we need the backing of as many Scottish football fans as possible, if you are reading this then please take two minutes to sign our petition and help Save The Badge! If you are thinking "why would I help Ayr United?" I can fully understand, however please be aware that over 20 Scottish clubs could be forced to change their badge unless we can get this law changed (I'm looking at you, Albion and Stranraer!) Thank you all! https://www.change.org/p/john-whittingdale-mp-corri-wilson-mp-save-ayr-united-fc-s-badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitalDiamond Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Just read the Ayrshire Post latest piece. Westminster will only recognise a petition through their own online system and so if you think there's any chance of hitting that number, you should really start one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I'd encourage you to read the 1592 Act, if only for entertainment's value. It's very short (about half a page) and contains no prescriptive period, only a right for the Lord Lyon to put offenders to the horne. I've read it and I've been to Ayr, and if nothing else the standard of English is probably better in the 1592 Act . Can you still be incarcerated for it, btw, or does some subsequent act disallow it? Incidentally, I recently attended a historical lecture by a member of the Lyon's court. Some cracking heraldry-based jokes, in particular I recall: "Old Ogilvy, laird of Airlie, died and his son went to register his rights". "Hello Lyon. I'm Airlie!" "Indeed you are. Please wait outside until the appointed time". Quite the raconteur... Anyway - if no middle ground is obtainable, I'm with the Lord Lyon here. Tough on crime, tough on the badges of crime. Tough on the greit abuse that hes bene amongis the leigis of this realme in thair bearing of armes vsurpand to thame selffis sic armes as belangis nocht vnto thame Sua that it can nocht be distinguischit be thair armes quha ar gentlemen of blude be thair antecessouris, tough on the causes of the greit abuse that hes bene amongis the leigis of this realme in thair bearing of armes vsurpand to thame selffis sic armes as belangis nocht vnto thame Sua that it can nocht be distinguischit be thair armes quha ar gentlemen of blude be thair antecessouris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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