Teams to Have Made It Since Scotland Last Did.

[1320Lichtie]

Couldn't agree more re this urge to constantly 'rip it all up and start again'. There has been much talk of binning the Pro-Youth scheme (Wotte and Levein's thing IIRC). That's ludicrous. Our failure to qualify this time round had absolutely nothing to do with Pro-Youth. Surely we should at least let it run long enough to produce a single generation of players before judging it?

We have let it run AFAIK, this year was planned to be the last year of it. Last batch started 1st year just a couple of month ago? Could be wrong though.

[Gordopolis]

We have let it run AFAIK, this year was planned to be the last year of it. Last batch started 1st year just a couple of month ago? Could be wrong though.

Ah right. The point still stands though, let's have a look at the players that come through from it before deciding whether it's a success or a failure. What age are the kids who have finished it?

[Miguel Sanchez]

I only switched-on part way through their discussion, when Spiers was reeling-off the various thinktanks, reports and reforms which have all been introduced over recent years. Although the point I felt was screaming to be made but wasn't is "but not seen to fruition". Ripping it up and starting again every 2-4 years it not any way to improve things.

Whether there is a blueprint or not, the philosophy seems to be "back to basics". That may be fair enough - what concerns me is the fact that it is may be going to go in hand with "back in time". We all accept that we were a football power in the days of boys clubs and reserve leagues; when ex-pros drilled kids and nobody knew what a coaching badge was, when technique and tactics were learnt rather than taught, when facilities were poor. It seems to fly in the face of reason to see them as a solution for the future, though.

Jackson's assertion that we actually have too many coaches, and they are too well qualified, was extraordinary.

EDIT: That and, depending on interpretation, the need to get away from technique.

Having been bored in work on Sunday and reading the many pages the Sunday Mail had on this, the assertion of "too much technique" seems to be more concerned with making coaching and playing at younger age groups too rigid, and now allowing natural creative freedom in a player to develop for fear of chastisement. Whether or not this is actually the case is completely beyond me, however.

[HibeeJibee]

When it comes to the likes of the Performance Schools and U20 Development leagues they've only been in place 2-3yrs. Impossible to judge success.

[1320Lichtie]

Ah right. The point still stands though, let's have a look at the players that come through from it before deciding whether it's a success or a failure. What age are the kids who have finished it?

I'm not too sure, I think it started in 2010? So the first lot 16/17 year old just now? 5 year thing I think.

[Gordopolis]

I'm not too sure, I think it started in 2010? So the first lot 16/17 year old just now? 5 year thing I think.

16/17 would be good as we might even see a few of them get game time this season. No idea who they are or what clubs they are attached to though!

[Scary Bear]

I was listening to a bit of Sportsound tonight, which included Keith Jackson from the Daily Record. Apparently they have had "exclusive" early peeks at this so-called 'Blueprint' which Strachan has apparently drawn-up and is going to unveil soon.

Amongst other things Jackson was arguing that we have too many qualified coaches - he actually used the words 'a surplus'! - before being shot down by another guest who pointed out our numbers per head versus other countries; that we need to teach less in technique; that we have too many kids in organised youth pathways; and he seemed to downplay the facilities aspect too, claiming "molly-coddling". Usual stuff about kicking balls in the street, bringing back the reserve league, no such thing as 'non-competitive' football, too.

Not sure how much of it is his view, and how much is Strachan's, but it seems to fly in the face of recent best practice abroad.

I heard that radio show too. The lack of facilities is a total no brainer. That needs to be addressed. Look at the weather today. Fucking horrible. Indoor pitches are a must.

The other aspect is technical skills. Here I think the strategy that was hinted at isn't completely daft. Kids experimenting with the ball is a good way to develop unique skills. If everyone is taught the same training methods then you'll possibly get a more uniform bunch of players with less brilliant/rotten players and more good/average players.

[SpoonTon]

I've said on here plenty times we have always been unlucky in the big games, ie your Georgia aways, Czech Republic at home, Norways at home etc etc etc.

But when you actually think of some of the players we have had playing rationally, you can see why we've not had any 'luck'. Maybe if we had better players we'd get lucky more often...

The defeat away in Georgia in September was nothing to do with being unlucky, and nothing to do with the players not being good enough. At the time Georgia were ranked 147 in the world with only 4 European teams below them in the rankings.This was a result up there with the draw in the Faroes. It's an important point that a squad of our quality cannot afford such slip-ups. Those are the games that we should be winning and need to win.

It is a bit of a separate issue to the quality of players coming through though. We obviously need to improve the standard of player that we're producing. The truth is that we produce very few international quality players in Scotland. This is only emphasised by much of the core of our current team not even coming through Scottish systems (Hanley, Martin, Morrison, Fletcher, Anya) - which isn't a terrible thing in itself, but we're really struggling if we're looking only at what we produce in Scotland. I mean, who is the best Scottish centre-half to come out of a Scottish system in the last 10-15 years?

[ChrisMFCfan1886]

When Did Latvia qualify?

[BFTD]

When Did Latvia qualify?

Euro 2004. Got a draw with Germany too.

What a time to be alive.

[1320Lichtie]

The defeat away in Georgia in September was nothing to do with being unlucky, and nothing to do with the players not being good enough. At the time Georgia were ranked 147 in the world with only 4 European teams below them in the rankings.This was a result up there with the draw in the Faroes. It's an important point that a squad of our quality cannot afford such slip-ups. Those are the games that we should be winning and need to win.

It is a bit of a separate issue to the quality of players coming through though. We obviously need to improve the standard of player that we're producing. The truth is that we produce very few international quality players in Scotland. This is only emphasised by much of the core of our current team not even coming through Scottish systems (Hanley, Martin, Morrison, Fletcher, Anya) - which isn't a terrible thing in itself, but we're really struggling if we're looking only at what we produce in Scotland. I mean, who is the best Scottish centre-half to come out of a Scottish system in the last 10-15 years?

I think it was though, I get the point you're making overall but when you're relying on a guy that's 32 and can't get a game for Hull, a guy that is a squad player at Everton and a guy that couldn't score to save himself for Sunderland (at the time) to win you international football matches then these results are always going to happen.

If we had a higher level of player, which surely we are capable of producing, then these results are much less likely to happen. I agree with you overall though.

[SpoonTon]

I think it was though, I get the point you're making overall but when you're relying on a guy that's 32 and can't get a game for Hull, a guy that is a squad player at Everton and a guy that couldn't score to save himself for Sunderland (at the time) to win you international football matches then these results are always going to happen.

If we had a higher level of player, which surely we are capable of producing, then these results are much less likely to happen. I agree with you overall though.

I do think we need to separate out the short term failures of a current team/management for the longer term problem of quality though. I get what you're saying that you always run the risk of an upset when you're not a top quality side - and that's an important point. I think we also have to ask other questions though, such as how to get the best out of what we have available.

Ireland have qualified for the last 2 Euro's without having better players than we have. A massive part of that was getting full points against teams like Georgia, Armenia, and Macedonia (and in the WC campaign before that they took full points from Cyprus and Georgia). Their record against similar teams to them and us isn't actually that great (no better than our own) but they manage to do the basics like beating Georgia - beating Germany would have meant nothing if they hadn't managed that (just like beating France twice meant nothing because we lost to Georgia).

We've dropped points against teams like Georgia, Macedonia, and Lithuania in the last 3 campaigns (and it wasn't the first time in any of those cases). We lose to Georgia and act like Strachan is the only man for the job, as if we can't do any better. The Irish prove that we can do better - and all we need to do is beat those teams ranked as lowly as 147 in the world.

[BFTD]

I think it grated with everyone, his fans or not, that WGS was put forward as the only man for the job, but I haven't seen anyone give a better suggestion without going for a foreigner (which the SFA seem loathe to do).. I suppose Moyes might be willing to consider it now, but only because his stock's so low at the moment.

Where did our top managers go, BTW? There was a while when we had quite a few top-quality bosses, none of whom would have been seen dead in a Scotland tracksuit. Now even the mediocre ones don't seem like they'd be interested.

[ShawfieldAggro]

The Georgia game is a case in point i referred to earlier. To say luck played a part is true.....Georgia were unlucky not to fucking hammer us. No shots on goal was more embarrassing than the defeat, which imo exemplifies the attitude displayed not just by Scotland, but our club sides in Europe also. The problem being, that too many willing individuals cling to excuse after excuse perpetuated by those directly involved....managers or players shouldn't be grumbling at the lack.of EPL players in the side, and instead grab what opportunity arises; neither should fans be so accepting of those offering them up. This basically comes down to a lowering of expectations....it's seen as a character flaw to demand success in Scotland, and by Christ the suits haven't half cleaned up exploiting it. I don't really believe this is the 15/20 year clean up job others seem to, generally speaking a positive on-field approach would at least hopefully send fans home either entertained or at least satisfied that what they witnessed was a cumulitive effort resulting in something worth supporting. The way some c***s go on, it's like an achievement just having a team, and everything else is shite luck. Having a bunch of money grabbing b*****ds in.charge, really doesn't help though at all.

[SpoonTon]

I think it grated with everyone, his fans or not, that WGS was put forward as the only man for the job, but I haven't seen anyone give a better suggestion without going for a foreigner (which the SFA seem loathe to do).. I suppose Moyes might be willing to consider it now, but only because his stock's so low at the moment.

Where did our top managers go, BTW? There was a while when we had quite a few top-quality bosses, none of whom would have been seen dead in a Scotland tracksuit. Now even the mediocre ones don't seem like they'd be interested.

The problem with the foreign manager aspect is that we happened to pick a really bad one the last time. Vogts was an expensive mistake. I had no idea why they were lauding him at the time. He was coming off the back of a really really poor number of years, his previous couple of jobs hadn't gone well. There wasn't really anything to suggest that he was going to be the man for us. That's not the case with every manager out there.

I wasn't against Strachan's appointment, maybe just because it was infinitely better than the last couple. Going forward I don't think we can afford to accept any more failures like the one in Georgia. This means that 12/12 is a necessity from Lithuania and Malta. No excuses, no pretending that it isn't vital. If Strachan can't get us to win those matches then he isn't the right man for the job. And he hasn't yet shown that he is the man from the job, despite what the press or players have said.

[BFTD]

I remember hearing that Berti wasn't liked in Germany, even right after winning Euro 96, and was seen as something of a joke figure. That had the alarm bells ringing for me when he was being considered. IIRC, he got the job because he was Craig Brown's mate, which isn't really the best way to go anyway.

You'd like to think the SFA haven't decided we're all a bunch of xenophobes because the fans turned against Berti. Everyone seemed quite pleased that we'd landed a high-profile (at the time) German coach, and the sudden drop in performance just made it look like he didn't have a clue what he was doing (and I know there are plenty of mitigating factors for that). I'd be amazed if anyone had a problem with a foreign coach being considered, so long as they had a decent track record.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I've said on here plenty times we have always been unlucky in the big games, ie your Georgia aways, Czech Republic at home, Norways at home etc etc etc.

But when you actually think of some of the players we have had playing rationally, you can see why we've not had any 'luck'. Maybe if we had better players we'd get lucky more often...

"The reason Scotland are shite is that our players are shite."

Thanks for that cutting edge analysis, Lichtie.

[1320Lichtie]

"The reason Scotland are shite is that our players are shite."

Thanks for that cutting edge analysis, Lichtie.

It was in response to the 'we never get any luck' shouts, Yassin.

Eta: maybe we should just close the thread? A 'were shite because our players are shite, and we will only be good when we produce good players' post will suffice, aye?

[BFTD]

Lichtie to head the SFA, IMO.

[SpoonTon]

I remember hearing that Berti wasn't liked in Germany, even right after winning Euro 96, and was seen as something of a joke figure. That had the alarm bells ringing for me when he was being considered. IIRC, he got the job because he was Craig Brown's mate, which isn't really the best way to go anyway.

You'd like to think the SFA haven't decided we're all a bunch of xenophobes because the fans turned against Berti. Everyone seemed quite pleased that we'd landed a high-profile (at the time) German coach, and the sudden drop in performance just made it look like he didn't have a clue what he was doing (and I know there are plenty of mitigating factors for that). I'd be amazed if anyone had a problem with a foreign coach being considered, so long as they had a decent track record.

I was against appointing Berti for those reasons. He really wasn't highly regarded as a coach in Germany among the fans. He went to Kuwait for a job, probably for decent money, didn't do very well at all, and we then decide he's the guy for us. It didn't make sense to me. Sometimes these things work out regardless, but I didn't see the sense in it and it turned out to be an expensive mistake.

There are plenty of foreign coaches of have been happy for us to appoint, and that remains the case. At the time of appointing Burley or Levein it was actually a necessity.