The Players

[Frankie S]

After our latest failure in a qualification campaign for a major tournament, the spotlight has been on the manager. I remember thinking, in the early stages of the qualifying campaign, that Stachan was doing a remarkable job. The team was hugely improved since the days of Levein, with largely the same group of players. I was almost getting optimistic about the future of the national team again. However, looking closely at the squad, and the younger players who might form the next generation, and how their club careers had developed over the last few seasons, my optimism started to fade.

Quite simply, the players are, in the vast majority of cases, not developing as we would like. Few, if any of them, have significant roles at major clubs. A few are marginal presences at major clubs, most are solid players at minor clubs, with a few disappearing out of sight into the backwaters of English football. Others have come back, chastened, to Scottish football to salvage the remnants of their once promising careers.

I'd already started this sober analysis before the pivotal Georgia game. I couldn't help but think that Strachan's early success in his Scotland career was, largely, down to the kind of new manager 'bounce' that you often see in club football, rather than the inherent ability of the squad, which looked thin at best.

I suspect, after the appalling job that the dour, conservative Levein did with Scotland, that any new manager would have seen a similar bounce, followed eventually, by a reversion to the mean due to the paucity of talent at his disposal.

A few examples of the underwhelming career developments of Scottish international footballers, aspiring internationalists and those touted as 'bright young talents' over the last few years:

Leigh Griffiths - a modest career at a Wolves side that suffered successive relegations, where the management's preference was generally to loan him out rather than utilise him in a struggling team. A less than stellar period in League One, followed by a transfer back to Scotland. Strachan tends to avoid using him in important games.

Verdict: Firmly in the 'big fish in a small pond' category.

Andy Robertson - touted as a 'great hope' by many in Scotland, perhaps for a move to one of the 'bigger teams' down south. In reality, has gone to Hull City and struggled to hold down a place in a team that suffered relegation to the Championship. Promising going forward, but defensively suspect, Strachan tends to avoid using him in important games.

Verdict: Failed to live up to the hype, so far at least.

Jordan Rhodes - a prolific scorer at Championship level, his career appears to have stalled. Unusually for someone who is so prolific at the rung below the top tier in England, not one struggling EPL team has taken a gamble on him. A couple of seasons ago we felt sure that he was on the verge of a move to the big time. It hasn't happened and we're starting to doubt that it ever will. A natural goal scorer, but limited in other aspects of his game, Strachan tends to avoid using him at all.

Verdict: 'Big fish in a small pond' category.

Scott Brown - never the most naturally gifted footballer, but a spiky, combative presence in midfield for Scotland, unlikely to be intimidated by bigger reputations or star names. I've tended towards the view that 'Scott Brown, footballer' is an oxymoron and wondered if a less gifted player has ever captained Scotland, but have acknowledged the need for a player of his sort in the national team. His recent performances for both club and country suggest that the Emperor does indeed have very few clothes.

Verdict: Too surly and too limited to be captain of his country material. Time to go.

Alan Hutton - patchy club career, often playing for Scotland when not getting a game for his club. Seems to be enjoying an 'in favour' period at club level, but hard to avoid the conclusion that it's likely to be a temporary phenomenon. Rarely highly regarded by the fans at his various clubs, revered rather more highly for Scotland, Hutton is something of an enigma, but he has looked badly exposed at times of late for Scotland, and opposition players have exploited the vast tracts of open land behind him in recent games.

Verdict: Defensively suspect, a proper right back would be preferable.

David Marshall - one stellar season with Cardiff in the EPL and Marshall was being touted for a move to a top team. It didn't happen, he's back in the Championship and it's hard to avoid the conclusion that that particular window has closed and he missed his opportunity.

Verdict: A decent keeper, no more.

Steven Fletcher - more appreciated in his absence (during the Levein years) than during his presence, under Strachan. His career at club level, in a poor Sunderland team, has faltered. Pilloried for his 'Me and my Lamborghini' selfie, which became something of an emblem of the overpaid, under-achieving EPL footballer.

Verdict: Harshly derided, but must do better.

Steven Naismith - one of the few Scottish players holding down a squad place at major club in England. A limited, but wholehearted player who has carved out a solid club career without ever threatening to set the heather on fire at international level. His recent hat trick against Chelsea rescued him from what seemed like a gradual phasing out period at Everton, with a place on the bench, rather than in the starting XI, becoming his more natural habitat. Remains to be seen if that was a late career flash in the pan.

Verdict: Dependable, but the suspicion is that his best days are behind him.

Robert Snodgrass - Hailed as one of our most promising creative players, looked good at Norwich in the EPL for a while, but has ended up back in the Championship, at Hull City. Terrible injury has wrecked the last year of his career. Remains to be seen what damage that, and ending up at Hull City, has done to his prospects.

Verdict: Fingers crossed.

Graham Dorrans - A player who seems to carry a lot of goodwill amongst the Scottish support. Often quoted as one of those elusive players that could make a difference, if only they could convince the international manager to select them. Realistically, probably another one of the glut of Scottish players that look decent at Championship level, but average, at best, at EPL level.

Verdict: Unproven.

James Forrest - has that elusive quality so coveted at the top level - pace. Oh, and nothing much else. His career has not really progressed in the way we would have liked. Still very little evidence of ability to deliver a killer cross or quality final ball, though he was far from the worst player last night.

Verdict: Not as bad as some would have us believe, but not as good as we need.

Shaun Maloney - used to be a James Forrest-type figure, peripheral for Scotland to the point of invisibility. Enjoyed a late career renaissance at club level in England and for the international side and became an influential figure. Then, disappointingly, moved to the US and, finally, the black hole that seems to suck in Scottish international footballers, Hull.

Verdict: his best days are behind him, but at least he had a few, in the end. There is hope for Forrest yet.

Grant Hanley - a rugged, raw, limited, rather ungainly young centre back who we hoped might blossom into an accomplished footballer at some stage. As we should have expected, it looks like he will blossom into a rugged, raw, limited, rather ungainly older centre back.

Verdict: Not great, but dependably so.

Charlie Adam - had a great spell at Blackpool, secured a transfer to Liverpool, but failed to establish himself there. Now with Stoke, but has fallen out of favour with Scotland.

Verdict: Disappointing

Ross McCormack - a prolific forward, who tends to play just off the main striker, in a successful Championship career with Cardiff, Leeds and Fulham. As a succession of Scotland managers have confirmed, we don't have much call for that sort of thing round here.

Verdict: International class? Probably not, but we may never find out.

Ryan Gauld - The 'next big thing'? Widely praised for not going to England and disappearing into the abyss of EPL reserve team football. Has gone to Portugal and disappeared into the abyss of Portuguese reserve team football. Is a Jack Harper-style loan move back to the UK in the offing? In the words of 'Bonnie Tyler', we're certainly 'holding out for a hero.' Is Gauld that man?

Verdict: Too early to say.

Stevie May - Is he still playing? Preston, you say? After being shipped out of Sheffield Wed. Not quite had the impact we were hoping for down south. Suspicion lingers that one prolific season in the SPL amounts to very little in the real world.

Verdict: Flash in the pan.

Barry Bannan - flattered to deceive at club and international level. Career seems to have stalled after early promise. Currently plying his trade at Sheffield Wednesday, after failing to establish himself at Villa and Palace and a host of loan moves.

Verdict: Disappointing

Ikechi Anya - hard not to like this guy. Irrepressible personality, bit of pace, one of the few Scottish players who thrives on the international stage. Seems to be establishing himself in the first XI in the EPL at Watford after flitting in and out of the team last term in the Championship.

Verdict: Will never be a world-beater, but a rare ray of sunshine.

Gary Mackay Steven - After coming back up the road from Liverpool, and starring for Dundee United, we were assured it was merely a pit stop en route to a more glamorous destination. The Celtic bench wasn't the glamorous destination we were hoping for.

Verdict: Underwhelming.

Scott Allan - Another 'great white hype' at Dundee Utd. After coming back up the road after an underwhelming spell at West Brom (and loan destinations such as Portsmouth and MK Dons), and starring for Hibs, we hoped that he might be primed for a move to a more exciting destination. The Celtic bench wasn't the exciting destination we were hoping for.

Verdict: Probably not The Messiah.

Jack Harper - A Scottish player at Real Madrid? It sounded too good to be true. It was. Jack Harper of Brighton and Hove Albion sounds much more like it.

A career of solid, underachieving Scottish mediocrity awaits. Or he might just turn out to be a superstar after all.

Verdict: Let's hope Ricky Sbragia was wrong.

Islam Feruz - A Scottish player at Chelsea? It sounded too good to be true. It was. Can't even do a Scott Allan and excel at Hibs.

Verdict: Too much, too young. Believed his own hype, I guess someone had to.

The overriding impression is that we have a bunch of very modest players at club level. I'm not sure we have a single player that could could be described, indisputably, as 'international class.'

We often say that Bale is the one player that elevates the Wales squad above the mediocrity of the Scotland squad, but we are fooling ourselves there. Yes, Bale is a truly world class player, but Wales have Aaron Ramsey too. We have no one operating at anything close to that level - an influential creative player at a top four club in England. Ashley Williams is captain of Swansea City and a more accomplished defender than anyone in our squad. Joe Allen plays for Liverpool, Ben Davies for Spurs. We don't have a single player playing for a club of the stature of Liverpool, Arsenal or Spurs, let alone Real Madrid. With James Collins at a resurgent West Ham, Andy King at Leicester and Neil Taylor, like Ashley Williams at Swansea, Wales have a cluster of players competing in or around the top half of the EPL. Even Ledley, Jonathan Williams and Hennessey are enjoying a brief sojourn in the upper echelons of the table with Palace. Wales have ten players from the top eleven in England at the moment, plus Gareth Bale. We have Naismith, and another Palace player, McArthur, playing for the first XI of one of the English top eleven, and no-one playing at a significant level abroad. We have a smattering of players at mid-table, Watford, Norwich and Stoke, and a few at strugglers Bournemouth, West Brom, Sunderland and Villa.

Along with the Championship contingent and the Scots-based players, it is a roll call of mediocrity. And there is very little hope in sight.

[Skyline Drifter]

I'd already started this sober analysis before the pivotal Georgia game. I couldn't help but think that Strachan's early success in his Scotland career was, largely, down to the kind of new manager 'bounce' that you often see in club football, rather than the inherent ability of the squad, which looked thin at best.

It was a pretty delayed "bounce" then. He didn't by any means hit the ground running and took a good few games to get things turning around. Not sure it can be so easily dismissed as a new manager bounce.

James Forrest - has that elusive quality so coveted at the top level - pace. Oh, and nothing much else. His career has not really progressed in the way we would have liked. Still very little evidence of ability to deliver a killer cross or quality final ball, though he was far from the worst player last night.

How far? He was awful. Even his one decent run which ended with the pass from which Ritchie scored saw him put the ball a yard behind the Bournemouth winger who was for me his only legitimate rival for the "worst player last night" title but avoids it for being marginally more willing to actually try something and a good bit more willing to actually run, though his tracking of the opposition full back was equally bad.

We often say that Bale is the one player that elevates the Wales squad above the mediocrity of the Scotland squad, but we are fooling ourselves there. Yes, Bale is a truly world class player, but Wales have Aaron Ramsey too. We have no one operating at anything close to that level - an influential creative player at a top four club in England. Ashley Williams is captain of Swansea City and a more accomplished defender than anyone in our squad. Joe Allen plays for Liverpool, Ben Davies for Spurs. We don't have a single player playing for a club of the stature of Liverpool, Arsenal or Spurs, let alone Real Madrid. With James Collins at a resurgent West Ham, Andy King at Leicester and Neil Taylor, like Ashley Williams at Swansea, Wales have a cluster of players competing in or around the top half of the EPL.

Joe Allen doesn't "play" for Liverpool. He's employed by them and plays about as often as Gary Mackay-Steven did. He's one of Rogers' bigger mistakes.

It's wrong to dismiss Wales as a one man team. Bale is truly world class but Ramsay is a very good quality midfielder and Williams the sort of non nonsense dominant defender Grant Hanley would like to grow up to be. Davies has had a very disrupted career with injury but he's a good player too. I don't particularly accept the rest of their squad to be any better than our though. It's easy to look at the number of Welsh and Irish players playing with English clubs and dismiss our players by comparison but that's at least partly because of the lack of a credible professional league in those countries so with the exception of those players who happen to be with Swansea, they inevitably gravitate to English sides. We have a professional league of a half decent standard here and so less of our players gravitate to England. It's probably detrimental to our international development that they do but that's why.

[calum_gers]

It was a pretty delayed "bounce" then. He didn't by any means hit the ground running and took a good few games to get things turning around. Not sure it can be so easily dismissed as a new manager bounce.

How far? He was awful. Even his one decent run which ended with the pass from which Ritchie scored saw him put the ball a yard behind the Bournemouth winger who was for me his only legitimate rival for the "worst player last night" title but avoids it for being marginally more willing to actually try something and a good bit more willing to actually run, though his tracking of the opposition full back was equally bad.

Joe Allen doesn't "play" for Liverpool. He's employed by them and plays about as often as Gary Mackay-Steven did. He's one of Rogers' bigger mistakes.

It's wrong to dismiss Wales as a one man team. Bale is truly world class but Ramsay is a very good quality midfielder and Williams the sort of non nonsense dominant defender Grant Hanley would like to grow up to be. Davies has had a very disrupted career with injury but he's a good player too. I don't particularly accept the rest of their squad to be any better than our though. It's easy to look at the number of Welsh and Irish players playing with English clubs and dismiss our players by comparison but that's at least partly because of the lack of a credible professional league in those countries so with the exception of those players who happen to be with Swansea, they inevitably gravitate to English sides. We have a professional league of a half decent standard here and so less of our players gravitate to England. It's probably detrimental to our international development that they do but that's why.

Joe Allen has made 99 appearances for Liverpool.

[Frankie S]

How far? He was awful. Even his one decent run which ended with the pass from which Ritchie scored saw him put the ball a yard behind the Bournemouth winger who was for me his only legitimate rival for the "worst player last night" title but avoids it for being marginally more willing to actually try something and a good bit more willing to actually run, though his tracking of the opposition full back was equally bad.

Joe Allen doesn't "play" for Liverpool. He's employed by them and plays about as often as Gary Mackay-Steven did.

73 league appearances in the last three and a bit seasons suggest that he does indeed 'play' for Liverpool, even if not not particularly well.

Your main point of contention with my damning assessment of the players at our disposal is that Forrest is even worse than I claimed. It's probably a fair point.

[Skyline Drifter]

Joe Allen has made 99 appearances for Liverpool.

73 league appearances in the last three and a bit seasons suggest that he does indeed 'play' for Liverpool, even if not not particularly well.

He's played a whole 12 minutes of football this season for Liverpool in the League, in two sub appearances, one of which was for a single minute last weekend at Everton. Rogers persevered with him for a while but through injury and just general ineffectiveness he barely gets an outing now and few of those league appearances were starts. He'll eventually get bored being a bit part player if Klopp doesn't make the decision for him and move on, at which point he'll be no more valid a counting player with a big team than Charlie Adam was. He spent time at Liverpool too but didn't hang around when it was clear he wasn't going to get regular starts.

I think you under-estimate the extent to which Wales do rely on Bale in particular but also Ramsay and Williams (and possibly Davies who I hadn't really considered mainly because injury has limited his contributions). I don't actually think many of the rest of their squad would improve our team no matter what club sides they happen to be at for now.

[babu]

secret behind iceland euro 2016 qualification

Northern Ireland will follow Iceland’s lead out of football wastelands - from 2013 !


In essence they play as they want to, not how the opposition dictates.
Which is sound- seeing as if they play at their own tempo & style they should be playing at their best.

anyway just posting some interesting links

[Skyline Drifter]

secret behind iceland euro 2016 qualification

Northern Ireland will follow Iceland’s lead out of football wastelands - from 2013 !

In essence they play as they want to, not how the opposition dictates.

Which is sound- seeing as if they play at their own tempo & style they should be playing at their best.

anyway just posting some interesting links

In essence the second link in particular, but both links to an extent, accredit progress to the use of 3G pitches. So given the growing proliferation of those in Scotland we should be fine in 10 years then!

[babu]

In essence the second link in particular, but both links to an extent, accredit progress to the use of 3G pitches. So given the growing proliferation of those in Scotland we should be fine in 10 years then!

It's the equivalent of Scotland having 320 full size & more importantly 2400 small pitches for the youngsters to train on.

not to mention huge amount of coaches having participated in uefa courses.

the previous info re their philosophy/style of play was from different links googling Iceland’s football success.

Ill be cheering them on in the finals.