whats the problem with scottish football

[The Chlamydia Kid]

The weather isn't an excuse (ask Iceland, Norway, Sweden or even Northern Ireland and England).

It isn't usually freezing. Utter pish that only an utter moron would slaver.

The population arguement has been to death on here (but again, ask Iceland or Northern Ireland, or Uruguay).

The 'too many options' thing is also nonsense. We've had home computer consoles since the 1980s. Folk have been able to watch football from all over the world since 1992. Video and DVD players have always been affordable and widely availablr since their inception. The internet became really popular in the late 90s, with home PCs becoming available in the mid 90s.

Plenty of other nations have the same 'distractions' not to mention other sports being much more popular (Wales and Ireland with rugby for example) but they've qualified and produced top players.

Iceland and Northern Ireland qualified for one tournament. They don't usually qualify or over perform for population and aren't doing anything much better than us. Just like if we had qualified, we wouldn't be any inspiration for others.

The internet and gaming have become embedded in our culture since the mid 90s onwards- what age would they kids be now?

Rugby doesn't not rely upon anything approaching the level of skill development that football does, far more of athleticism which can be developed far quicker. The key to skill acquisition is repeated practice over years and years. Rugby is also played by far far less people worldwide and the level of development needed to compete is not comparable to football.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

I'd first hand experience of working with young elite footballers in this country for more than a few years and the difference in attitude between Scottish lads and foreigners is absolutely night and day. The foreign boys were conscientious in everything they did, more mature, respectful, took everything seriously(their ability was no different).

The Scottish lads, generally, took it all for granted, thought they'd made it as soon as they'd signed pro, were more interested in designer clothes, clubbing, women etc. Their diets were absolutely terrible, a disgrace for 'professional athletes'. The club would encourage them to eat well and lay on nutritious meals, diet plans, but as soon as they were out of sight they were eating bars of chocolate, drinking ginger etc.

It is a cultural problem, there is a complete lack of professionalism in this country. Ronnie Delia and Paul Le Guen have tried to import scientific methods and a lifestyle more in keeping with how an athlete should live but are ridiculed for it- remember monster munch gate at Murray park? Do you think Ronaldo, Bolt or any other top athlete go about eating crisps on a daily basis?

I wont name names of players but the senior players who got looked up to were shocking role models- they were respected and idolised for the cars they drove, women they banged behind their missuses backs, disregard they showed towards training etc. Whilst who should have been a role model as an excellent professional who made the best of his talents through hard work and dedication (Scottish incidentally) was never someone they aspired to.

There is a culture in this country where people expect everything to be provided for them. They don't want to work for it or make sacrifices. They don't take responsibility. They don't see rules as being there for the collective benefit, just something they can break so long as they don't get caught. Its that mindset that is just one contributory factor holding us back in football, but it's one that is endemic and very very slow and hard to change.

Having said all that the Scottish lads had better banter than the foreigners...

[dogmc]

The group was a stinker - good luck to NIreland but if the groups were swapped the name of this thread would be France16 here we come!

It's in contrast to the Rugby World Cup Scotland quality from a relatively decent group. If they were in England's group instead of Wales they wouldn't have won in Twickenham.

The two matches against Poland were the best international matches I've watched in years & years. I thought the match in Warsaw was top quality. While the return at Hampden wasn't as good but Scotland recovered from 1 down by scoring 2 wonderful goals.

The Scotland fans have to share some of the blame now for the nation under performing. It was all going so well on Thursday night but they just couldn't help themselves and had to burst into an endless chorus of Doh a Dear a female deer. Dear oh dear.

Now when I first heard it being sung in 1996 in Austria (the land of Maria no less) it was the funniest thing I'd ever heard football fans sing. Now nearly 20 years on it's no funny any more, it's a total embarrassment. Making Scotland fans the most camp fans in the world. Compare the two sets of fans at Hampden the big Polish boys v the wee D'oh a deer clan.

Until this song is ditched Scotland will never qualify for a major tournament. Which is not a bad thing until TT come up with some new material.

The 2018 World Cup will be difficult but the 2020 Euros is definitely achievable. I just hope Vienna isn't one of the cities selected.

A song stopped us winning....aye ok then......

[Eder]

Did you not read the full post?

[dogmc]

Iceland and Northern Ireland qualified for one tournament. They don't usually qualify or over perform for population and aren't doing anything much better than us. Just like if we had qualified, we wouldn't be any inspiration for others.

The internet and gaming have become embedded in our culture since the mid 90s onwards- what age would they kids be now?

Rugby doesn't not rely upon anything approaching the level of skill development that football does, far more of athleticism which can be developed far quicker. The key to skill acquisition is repeated practice over years and years. Rugby is also played by far far less people worldwide and the level of development needed to compete is not comparable to football.

Im involved in rugby n would strongly disagree with you on the skilksets point....one of the reasons northern hemisphere sides have struggled to gain parity with the sh is precisely because we tried to hit the gym and largely ignored the skills work. There is a hugely diverse skillset required which takes years to perfect (right now the scottish hooker sitting on 90 odd caps struggles to throw to line outs n hook in scrums) in all of the different positions. It is now being addressed across all age levels though and in next decade or so will bear fruit. I totally take on board your next post though....its not that long ago sfa was taking a youth team to i think Albania n packed cases of pot noodle for the trip. I can see a huge difference in the work ethic of the guys going through rugby youth development with my son and their pals in the football programme....ive no idea tho how that can be changed....almost feels like the footy lads see it as an x factor audition ie try to scrape into a team to get fame n fortune so never have to work in the future. Mind darren fletcher saying the youth guys at man u were shocked at how hard Ronaldo used to work in training. It does seem to be a cultural thing here

[The Chlamydia Kid]

That's plenty.

edited

[Bully Wee Villa]

Having read that Jailhouse Rock was number one last time Wales qualified for a tournament I had a look what was number one when we secured qualification for the 1998 World Cup.

It was the Lady Di version of Candle in the Wind. So, basically, Scotland not qualifying is Kate Middleton's fault. If she'd have unselfishly died in a car crash we'd likely have made it.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

Im involved in rugby n would strongly disagree with you on the skilksets point....one of the reasons northern hemisphere sides have struggled to gain parity with the sh is precisely because we tried to hit the gym and largely ignored the skills work. There is a hugely diverse skillset required which takes years to perfect (right now the scottish hooker sitting on 90 odd caps struggles to throw to line outs n hook in scrums) in all of the different positions. It is now being addressed across all age levels though and in next decade or so will bear fruit. I totally take on board your next post though....its not that long ago sfa was taking a youth team to i think Albania n packed cases of pot noodle for the trip. I can see a huge difference in the work ethic of the guys going through rugby youth development with my son and their pals in the football programme....ive no idea tho how that can be changed....almost feels like the footy lads see it as an x factor audition ie try to scrape into a team to get fame n fortune so never have to work in the future. Mind darren fletcher saying the youth guys at man u were shocked at how hard Ronaldo used to work in training. It does seem to be a cultural thing here

I think that you could never have touched a rugby ball until you were at high school and take the game up late and still be able to potentially perform at a decent level, same goes for boxing and other sports as the skill level required to survive isn't so intricate as football. If you hadn't kicked a ball and took up football at even the age of 8 or 9 you would never catch up.

That isn't said to denigrate rugby or boxing, just that there is a different ratio of skill to athleticism required in football, though Mayweather and the elite rugby boys are every bit as skillful as the likes of Aguero...

I've seen the dedication of others in different sports like you say though and it is incomparable to football

[Owsley]

Dean Saunders made a point earlier on Goals on Sunday that was similar to a point I made on the Poland match thread and got shot down for it. John Toshack decided that as Wales were going through campaign after campaign making no progress and doing the same things, it was time to just go with a younger group, bed them in, let them make their mistakes and hopefully reap the rewards a few campaigns down the line. A very brave decision and one a younger coach would never have made. I can't see GS if he stays being as brave. Of course it helps having a Bale and a Ramsay coming through but we have Gauld and Christie, and a few others, get them in the squad, play them in friendlies, be braver. We can't go on like this.

[Billy Jean King]

Break up of the Soviet Union.

No Georgia in our group for a start.

There's quite a lot in this not just the soviet union but eastern Europe in general. It created at least 8 more teams at least on a par with ourselves despite what the flawed ranking system says.

[Cannon Fodder]

The group was a stinker - good luck to NIreland but if the groups were swapped the name of this thread would be France16 here we come!

It's in contrast to the Rugby World Cup Scotland quality from a relatively decent group. If they were in England's group instead of Wales they wouldn't have won in Twickenham.

The two matches against Poland were the best international matches I've watched in years & years. I thought the match in Warsaw was top quality. While the return at Hampden wasn't as good but Scotland recovered from 1 down by scoring 2 wonderful goals.

The Scotland fans have to share some of the blame now for the nation under performing. It was all going so well on Thursday night but they just couldn't help themselves and had to burst into an endless chorus of Doh a Dear a female deer. Dear oh dear.

Now when I first heard it being sung in 1996 in Austria (the land of Maria no less) it was the funniest thing I'd ever heard football fans sing. Now nearly 20 years on it's no funny any more, it's a total embarrassment. Making Scotland fans the most camp fans in the world. Compare the two sets of fans at Hampden the big Polish boys v the wee D'oh a deer clan.

Until this song is ditched Scotland will never qualify for a major tournament. Which is not a bad thing until TT come up with some new material.

The 2018 World Cup will be difficult but the 2020 Euros is definitely achievable. I just hope Vienna isn't one of the cities selected.

Your idea that singing doh a deer has any bearing on the outcome of a qualification campaign is absurd.

Seriously, there's been some rubbish spouted on here in the last few days but that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

[DA Baracus]

I think that you could never have touched a rugby ball until you were at high school and take the game up late and still be able to potentially perform at a decent level, same goes for boxing and other sports as the skill level required to survive isn't so intricate as football. If you hadn't kicked a ball and took up football at even the age of 8 or 9 you would never catch up.

That isn't said to denigrate rugby or boxing, just that there is a different ratio of skill to athleticism required in football, though Mayweather and the elite rugby boys are every bit as skillful as the likes of Aguero...

I've seen the dedication of others in different sports like you say though and it is incomparable to football

I disagree with some of your points, but I do agree that it often comes across, to me at least, that most Scottish players simply don't train as hard and live as professionally as those in other countries. We often hear that after training, players just go home (or to the bookies etc). How many stay behind to work on aspects of their game? Also in terms of physique (relative to size) we seem to be way behind compared to other countries. This isn't the case with the rugby team for example who are also one of the fittest.

There definitely seems to be a sense of privilege among too many of our players. John Collins might be a dick but he was hugely professional and worked hard all the time during his playing career. When he tried to apply this in management, it apparently did not go down well

[HibeeJibee]

We did not qualify because we dropped points to Georgia; took only 4pts from Eire and 2pts from Poland; plus failed to take any points from Germany.

Reasons behind those things have to come down to a combination of some or all of:

* management and tactics

* misfortune, luck and chance

* inherent qualify of the playing squad

Claims about facilities, "no ball games" signs and computer games consoles are just the fantasy indulgences of people looking for things to blame. We have far superior facilities to a great many countries, and we are clearly far from unique in having parks departments and household IT equipment...

Perhaps it is an attitude problem among Scottish/British players. Certainly they seem less committed compared to other sports and countries. Possibly it is down to tactics and youth development. If so we'll have to come back in 2020 or after as the new methods are only a few years old. Conceivably we might even be in or around our rightful place in the order of things. We're a small nation and a lot has changed over the decades.

Would it be a heresy to suggest that we just aren't into our football enough nowadays?

If you ranked the countries in our group by participation in football we'd be fourth, IIRC... We are a nation of almost unrivalled football spectators, not of footballers, and people who rebuff that by claiming we have "more passion" than anyone else simply perpetuate meaningless self-platitudes.

Maybe feeling less sorry for ourselves would also help.

Certainly, there are no easy or obvious answers, and we are far from alone. Look at the fate of Hungary, or the recent rapid decline of Greece.

I think the ambitions fans have for us are often too high - but our current status is too low. Our rightful position is somewhere between the two.

[Monkey Tennis]

We did not qualify because we dropped points to Georgia; took only 4pts from Eire and 2pts from Poland; plus failed to take any points from Germany.

Reasons behind those things have to come down to a combination of some or all of:

* management and tactics

* misfortune, luck and chance

* inherent qualify of the playing squad

Claims about facilities, "no ball games" signs and computer games consoles are just the fantasy indulgences of people looking for things to blame. We have far superior facilities to a great many countries, and we are clearly far from unique in having parks departments and household IT equipment...

Perhaps it is an attitude problem among Scottish/British players. Certainly they seem less committed compared to other sports and countries.

Possibly it is down to tactics and youth development. If so we'll have to come back in 2020 or after as the new methods are only a few years old.

Conceivably we might even be in or around our rightful place in the order of things. We're a small nation and a lot has changed over the decades.

Would it be a heresy to suggest that we just aren't into our football enough nowadays?

If you ranked the countries in our group by participation in football we'd be fourth, IIRC... We are a nation of almost unrivalled football spectators, not of footballers, and people who rebuff that by claiming we have "more passion" than anyone else simply perpetuate meaningless self-platitudes.

Maybe feeling less sorry for ourselves would also help.

Certainly, there are no easy or obvious answers, and we are far from alone. Look at the fate of Hungary, or the recent rapid decline of Greece.

Much more sensible than most of the posts on here.

Some are meant to be parodies of course, but an alarming number aren't, yet could be.

I'm interested in this participation thing. Are we really fourth?

I'm assuming you're dealing in absolute, rather than 'per-head' figures here, which would obviously place us well behind Germany and Poland. I'm slightly surprised we're not next though.

If fewer people play than in other smallish countries though, I suppose it's no surprise that we're not very good.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

I agree we are not that into football anymore, we are not that into football anymore as there are far too man competing interests upon kids' attentions, we are a wealthy, comfortable nation compared to most and kicking a ball against a wall doesn't seem as attractive to so many kids now.

[Owsley]

Doh a deer is cringeworthy though, smacks of attention seeking "look at us, we're the story". How it is meant to inspire the players is anyone's guess. They're probably thinking, not this pish again.

If I can add, what makes the island of Ireland so different? One side are through, admittedly for the first time since 1986, and the other have at least finished above us. Yet Ireland has so many competing sports, their own sports like hurling and Gaelic football, their rugby team has out performed ours for many years, the Irish dominate horse racing, the world's top golfer is Irish but do Ireland not have a drinking culture and a questionable diet like us? Maybe they don't spectate as much as their domestic leagues are poor. Maybe Ireland is a nation of doers rather than a nation of watchers.

[HibeeJibee]

I'm interested in this participation thing. Are we really fourth? I'm assuming you're dealing in absolute, rather than 'per-head' figures here, which would obviously place us well behind Germany and Poland. I'm slightly surprised we're not next though. If fewer people play than in other smallish countries though, I suppose it's no surprise that we're not very good.

I'll dig out my FIFA Almanac - but I am almost positive that at the last FIFA Census more people were playing football in Eire than they were over here, particularly at youth level. I don't know what the population of Georgia is but you may even find that we're fifth in our group in at least some categories.

[Bully Wee Villa]

In footballing terms, Ireland will have a bigger selection to choose from than Scotland due to the fact there's a massive Irish population in England and anyone from Northern Ireland can play for the Republic under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. Also, plenty of Scots are eligible for Ireland but few Irish are eligible for Scotland.

[Monkey Tennis]

I'll dig out my FIFA Almanac - but I am almost positive that at the last FIFA Census more people were playing football in Eire than they were over here, particularly at youth level. I don't know what the population of Georgia is but you may even find that we're fifth in our group in at least some categories.

Georgia only has three million people, so I'd be surprised if they have more footballers.

I'm also really surprised by the Irish situation though, given the huge participation in GAA games.

[mizfit]

The Irish pool in England & Scotland must be coming to the end of the grandparent pool I'd imagine, and there surely isn't going to be many for Ireland to benefit from in the future?