Skyline Drifter Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 So it's over. Lots of talk from the SFA and players about progress having been made. Ultimately though we've finished 4th, where we were seeded to finish and achieved nothing. Where did it go wrong and where do we go from here? There's little doubt we got handed one of the most difficult groups. Northern Ireland are rightly being lauded for their qualification efforts but they had a very fortunate draw. Pretty much so did Wales (and England but their seeding always made that likely). However, it wasn't one that overly frightened me when the draw was made. I thought we were well capable of beating the Irish and Poles and so it indeed proved (more or less). As ever our failings have been in dispatching the minnows and glorious failure against the really big boys. In the end, as tricky as the group was, it was no more tricky for us than it was for the Irish and they will finish 2nd or 3rd. They have some better players than us (Coleman, McCarthy, probably McGeady, Walters & Long, even still Robbie Keane would all walk into the Scotland side) but we have some better players than them too and the facts are we beat them (deservedly) at Celtic Park and drew with them (maybe a little fortunately) in Dublin. We're not out because of failings against Ireland. Nor are we out because of failings against Poland. Two 2-2 draws are respectable enough although they were the better side last night and we led both games late in the second half and couldn't hold on. We're out because we: 1 - Once again failed to get a result in Georgia. They are an awkward side but the facts are the other three nations all managed to win there. We barely managed a shot though. 2 - Despite two terrific efforts, more especially the one in Germany, we lost to the Germans twice. The Poles got a win and the Irish got 4 points from them. Interviewed last night Strachan bemoaned our lack of luck and to an extent he has a point. The group draw itself was unlucky. A stronger referee would have reduced the Germans to 10 men by half time in that opening game and we had chances to lead it before they scored their second. We had leads against the Poles twice and didn't hold them. Ireland have drawn with Poland and Germany and beaten Georgia with injury time goals. There was an element of fortune about all three German goals at Hampden. Poland's first goal last night was probably offside, their second was incredibly fortunate. However, I'm not really buying into the bad luck excuse. We also beat Georgia at home due to a fortunate own goal and the goal that levelled in Dublin had more than a hint of fortune about it too. Both the Germans and Poles at Hampden were the better sides even if their goals were fortunate. They didn't steal an undeserved result with luck. We also got a fluke ourselves against Germany at Hampden albeit it made no odds on that occasion. Have we progressed under Strachan? Well yes we probably have but that's largely because things were at such a low ebb under Levein. It took a while to pay some dividends but he did get us playing some better stuff and looking a genuine threat to bigger nations. Uncovering Anya was a bonus. But the form in the last few games hasn't been magic. For all the battling qualities we were second best to all four group opponents in the second games (we haven't met Gibraltar again yet obviously). And I'm completely bemused why Maloney, our best player in the group, was left cooling his heels on a bench last night while we watched James Forrest by and large stand still on the pitch whether we had the ball or didn't. Indeed he and Matt Ritchie may have combined for an outstanding goal but it was about all they both did. Who on earth nominated Ritchie as man of the match! Time after time both failed to track runners leaving Hutton and Whittaker isolated against two Poles. Forrest should be nowhere near the Scotland team but Strachan appears to have a bit of a blind spot there. Strachan to stay or go? Surprised to find my answer now is genuinely "I'm not bothered". A year ago I thought he was doing a brilliant job and we should have been extending his deal then but now? Meh. He's done ok and I'm not desperate to chase him away but if he feels he's had a go and wants to walk away I'm ok with it. I wouldn't mind McLeish going back in or even Walter Smith. End of the road for any players? Not really sure it needs to be. Maloney, 33 in January is the most likely to call it a day I guess though he's been our best player this campaign. Gordon Greer bound to go too at 34 but he's been barely a fringe player really anyway. Whittaker is 31. Hutton will be 31 next month. Darren Fletcher will be 32 in February. Scott Brown is 30 now. The rest of the squad is easily young enough for one or two more campaigns. Those four have another one in them if they want it though surely nobody would blame Fletcher, no longer a regular starter and after all his illness, if he decided to concentrate on extending his club career now. I'm not sure there's an awful lot coming through but maybe we do need to look at Griffiths more, fast-track Ryan Gauld, bring in Stuart Armstrong, etc. Oh well, on to the World Cup qualifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 All these wordy post mortems, fact is we're absolutely in the clutch and always have been and probably always will be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CM. Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Would agree with all that except the game in Dublin. Ireland were there for the taking (scored a goal that should never have counted) and although there was also a slice of luck about our goal we made a half arsed attempt to build on it and go for the win when we had the momentum, seemingly settling for a draw. Also Strachans worst decision of the campaign probably came in that game in the shape of starting Craig Forsyth. His performance that day still sends a shiver down my spine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I'd agree with much of it as well, except for the fact that it wasn't a particularly tricky group. The Georgia game was of Levein standards of incompetence. One of the worst performances I've ever seen from Scotland. Strachan gets the benefit of the doubt because we, for a time, played significantly better and more confidently than we have for a while. But we've regressed since then. So, I agree. Ambivalence rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawfieldAggro Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Well i find it hard to disagree with OP, however.....the one startling factor in each and every match we have played under Strachan (beginning with Wales at home) is the perpetual lack of gameplan whatsoever. With quality players, teams can bounce off him/them and ride fixtures out.....without any, one is a must. He started in after the Welsh catastrophe labelling the first twenty minutes 'freaky' when we had about a dozen touches of the ball. He instantly lost my backing with that lazy, insulting remark, and frankly displayed nothing from then on which convinced me that he had the faintest fucking idea what he was doing. Each and evrry time we scored in this campaign, no one seemed to know what their job was NOW. That last fifteen minutes last night were embarrassing....to highlight Ireland's excellent record for late goals, is is testament to their application. The result frankly is immaterial....this was the approach from day one with Strachan, and bullshitting his way through it left that team exposed, and it just doesnt have the chatacter or initiative to think for itself. Those scars may never heal, certainly for the older players. 3/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubo_blaha Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 End of the road for any players? Not really sure it needs to be. Maloney, 33 in January is the most likely to call it a day I guess though he's been our best player this campaign. Gordon Greer bound to go too at 34 but he's been barely a fringe player really anyway. Whittaker is 31. Hutton will be 31 next month. Darren Fletcher will be 32 in February. Scott Brown is 30 now. The rest of the squad is easily young enough for one or two more campaigns. Those four have another one in them if they want it though surely nobody would blame Fletcher, no longer a regular starter and after all his illness, if he decided to concentrate on extending his club career now. I'm not sure there's an awful lot coming through but maybe we do need to look at Griffiths more, fast-track Ryan Gauld, bring in Stuart Armstrong, etc. Agree with this part. We need to get some of the younger lads in the squad and shift out the guys who are reaching their thirties. If we do somehow qualify for the world cup then the likes of Maloney, D. Fletcher, Whittaker, Hutton will all be heading will all be 33-35 and other guys like Brown, Morrison, Naismith and Martin not far behind. We should get the likes of Armstrong, Shinnie, Robertson, Rhodes, Griffiths, Russell, Fraser, Christie, Gauld, Bain etc. in around the squads with a good few of them starting games in the next campaign. I'm not saying we should play the whole under 21 squad but these are the guys who are going to make up our team for the next ten years and its better to give them international experience sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 Would agree with all that except the game in Dublin. Ireland were there for the taking (scored a goal that should never have counted) and although there was also a slice of luck about our goal we made a half arsed attempt to build on it and go for the win when we had the momentum, seemingly settling for a draw. I forgot the Irish goal in that game was offside. Add that to Strachan's list of unlucky incidents then. Doesn't change the fact we were second best by miles in the first half over there and hauling ourselves back into it second half doesn't change the fact that Ireland were the better side in it. Do agree though that we settled for a draw too easily in it. A win that day would have killed the Irish off. I'd agree with much of it as well, except for the fact that it wasn't a particularly tricky group. No? I think compared to all the others it's up there as one of the most difficult we could have had. Personally I don't agree with Strachan's assessment that it's the hardest. Swapping places with Latvia as 4th seeds in Group A with Iceland, Netherlands, Turkeys and the Czechs strikes me as worse. And swapping with Belarus to join Spain, Ukraine and Slovakia may have been comparable. Otherwise I'd merrily have taken a swap with any other 4th seed. Agree with this part. We need to get some of the younger lads in the squad and shift out the guys who are reaching their thirties. If we do somehow qualify for the world cup then the likes of Maloney, D. Fletcher, Whittaker, Hutton will all be heading will all be 33-35 and other guys like Brown, Morrison, Naismith and Martin not far behind. We should get the likes of Armstrong, Shinnie, Robertson, Rhodes, Griffiths, Russell, Fraser, Christie, Gauld, Bain etc. in around the squads with a good few of them starting games in the next campaign. I'm not saying we should play the whole under 21 squad but these are the guys who are going to make up our team for the next ten years and its better to give them international experience sooner rather than later. I didn't actually say we should do that, merely that it's an option. I'm not a fan of the abandon everyone over 25 for a team to bring us though for ten years approach. And I'm not remotely convinced that the young players coming through are good enough to justify that. However, I agree we should look at some or most of the players you mention. Bain's a wee bit unlucky as we are already blessed with three really good keepers who aren't really anywhere near retiral age for a keeper yet. He'll probably need to wait a while for his opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Strachan was far too reliant on picking players by reputation rather than form - of the starting 11 last night you easily make a case for most of them to be replaced because they have not been on form for Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A.F.C Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Not enough talent. Playing players who don't play every week for their club. Reality, we are a bit rubbish and there's nothing coming through. A few lucky wins over France and others doesn't mask the truth for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubo_blaha Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I didn't actually say we should do that, merely that it's an option. I'm not a fan of the abandon everyone over 25 for a team to bring us though for ten years approach. And I'm not remotely convinced that the young players coming through are good enough to justify that. However, I agree we should look at some or most of the players you mention. Bain's a wee bit unlucky as we are already blessed with three really good keepers who aren't really anywhere near retiral age for a keeper yet. He'll probably need to wait a while for his opportunity. I maybe came across more extreme than intended, I still think we should keep a few of the older players in (Marshall, Martin, Morrison, Naismith, possibly Brown) but I think we should focus more on some of the players I've listed. I'm not saying every single one of them should be a stick-on starting player but there are a few who could probably do as good a job as some of the older guys we have now who have failed to qualify for the last few tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 Strachan was far too reliant on picking players by reputation rather than form - of the starting 11 last night you easily make a case for most of them to be replaced because they have not been on form for Scotland. Really, who? I don't think there's a lot to choose between the three keepers but McGregor's not been in great form in the last year and Gordon has made a couple of high profile errors for Celtic lately. No complaints with picking Marshall. Martin and Hanley are "limited" but they are as good as we have probably and Martin hasa been in good form for Norwich, as has Whittaker, albeit playing on the other side. You may have a point about Hutton who hasn't really played that well for a while but he did ok last night. I've already made my feelings clear on selecting Forrest in particular ahead of Maloney and I may not have played Ritchie either. Brown has been out of form at Celtic so there's an argument McArthur should have started I suppose but it's a big call to leave your captain out. Darren Fletcher has been in excellent form. Steven Naismith has had a great month or so and even Steven Fletcher has seemed to recapture something albeit the calls for Griffiths to start are obvious. I note (but don't agree with) the argument for Griffiths over Fletcher and I take the point potentially with the full backs and even Brown but there's no way "most of the starting eleven" should have been replaced with more in form players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubo_blaha Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Not enough talent. Playing players who don't play every week for their club. Reality, we are a bit rubbish and there's nothing coming through. A few lucky wins over France and others doesn't mask the truth for me. Name one player who started last night who isn't a regular for their club side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We played Poland twice and Ireland twice and came away with one win. Draws kill us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 Name one player who started last night who isn't a regular for their club side. Naismith probably and possibly also Forrest but yeah, I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 We played Poland twice and Ireland twice and came away with one win. Draws kill us. and no defeats. As I already said, it wasn't the results against Ireland and Poland that put us out. It was the ones against Germany and Georgia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro Sham Bo Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Name one player who started last night who isn't a regular for their club side. Hutton? Even the likes of Steven Fletcher has only just got back into the Sunderland side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CM. Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 It was not gaining enough points that put us out, it really is as simple as that, no matter what game(s) people mask as the downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 Hutton? Even the likes of Steven Fletcher has only just got back into the Sunderland side. Hutton has played most games for Villa this season. Fair point about Fletcher who has been out of the Sunderland side until the last week or two though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Georgia away was the one that fucked us. We went into the group as 4th seeds thinking we could match Ireland and Poland. We got the better of Ireland and matched Poland. That should have seen us 3rd at least. Struggled at home to Georgia but got the win. Lost away and we are now out on our arses and finishing 4th. Even ignoring Poland and Ireland taking points off the Germans, the fact we couldn't take full points off the sides ranked below us is the bit that has done the most damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambino7 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Name one player who started last night who isn't a regular for their club side. What about playing players out of form for their clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.