TFW Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I constantly hear that the Lowland League is a higher grade than the Juniors. Given that the Juniors chose not to be part of the LL set up, and are not independently graded how on earth can they be judged to be below the Lowland League teams? Discuss, kick arse, swear or whatever..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surely not! Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I constantly hear that the Lowland League is a higher grade than the Juniors. Given that the Juniors chose not to be part of the LL set up, and are not independently graded how on earth can they be judged to be below the Lowland League teams? Discuss, kick arse, swear or whatever..... Cause there's still a priority list when it comes to the sfa and ref assignments. If I started an American football league here would the NFL not be above it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killiepiyo Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 My thoughts (Not representing anyone other than myself) You either follow the path or carve out your own i guess. Hopefully the creation of a east and west league (existing format, just along side the lowland/highland league) will prove sensible with the play off involving winners of all 4 for a shot at the spfl team in a final game. If any winning team doesn't want to go up or have the required ground etc after the final then thats up to them. So in theory everything virtually stays the same, ambition to move up can be addressed, the playoffs would pull good crowds and assistance could be provided to members of the top leagues to meet current licenses/stadium standards. Just an idea no doubt mentioned before but imo seems like it could work and everyone can keep their existing roles etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surely not! Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 My thoughts (Not representing anyone other than myself) You either follow the path or carve out your own i guess. Hopefully the creation of a east and west league (existing format, just along side the lowland/highland league) will prove sensible with the play off involving winners of all 4 for a shot at the spfl team in a final game. If any winning team doesn't want to go up or have the required ground etc after the final then thats up to them. So in theory everything virtually stays the same, ambition to move up can be addressed, the playoffs would pull good crowds and assistance could be provided to members of the top leagues to meet current licenses/stadium standards. Just an idea no doubt mentioned before but imo seems like it could work and everyone can keep their existing roles etc. Can't see 4 working as the east/west would cover lowland territory. Three ( highland East and west) with the bottom team in spfl 2 making up the four for playoffs would make more sense IMO. However, at least with your idea the leagues underneath would be fairly equal. At the moment a highland league has 18 teams and the lowland essentially 15 plus the teams in EoS and sos then it's uneven. The same would be true if the juniors were included- you'd have about 80 teams in each structure ( East and west) and 18 in highland. That can't be fairb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsorsladdie Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Can't see 4 working as the east/west would cover lowland territory. Three ( highland East and west) with the bottom team in spfl 2 making up the four for playoffs would make more sense IMO. However, at least with your idea the leagues underneath would be fairly equal. At the moment a highland league has 18 teams and the lowland essentially 15 plus the teams in EoS and sos then it's uneven. The same would be true if the juniors were included- you'd have about 80 teams in each structure ( East and west) and 18 in highland. That can't be fairb Where would the north juniors go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFW Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Faroes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mantis Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I constantly hear that the Lowland League is a higher grade than the Juniors. Given that the Juniors chose not to be part of the LL set up, and are not independently graded how on earth can they be judged to be below the Lowland League teams? Discuss, kick arse, swear or whatever..... I'm constantly hearing the Juniors is a higher grade than the LL. Suppose I've just got different lugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troon Fc Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 The Lowland League is a higher grade as it is the only direct route into senior (pro) football from non league (semi pro) football. Debate around the standard is irrelevant as the regulating body has decided this to be the case. The best grade of football in this country is the SPFL, the only way into that as a semi professional team is from the affiliated leagues. I would love to see a consensus that brought the Junior teams into this set up but I feel it's inevitable that some teams will go anyway. I for one would love to see Troon FC compete for a place in the highest league possible in the country. Great for the town, the young players in the town and for the Club. The big issue is the regional element that playing in the Juniors brings and if this can be addressed to minimise travel in an affiliated league I think many more clubs would jump at it. Especially with the funding potential and Scottish Cup place every season. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsorsladdie Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 When they brought the pyramid about it should have been 2 national leagues of 16 (prem and championship) Ann's then regionalised, North, East & west below that. Could have had the Scottish cup, league cup and then looked for a way to keep the junior cup and Eis cup etc for the teams who originally competed for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 It was always the case that the senior minor leagues were ostensibly higher grades than the Juniors, given their SFA membership and entry in some cases to the Scottish Cup, but it was always taken with a pinch of salt, with a lot of the lower East of Scotland and majority of South of Scotland sides playing on roped-off public parks. To all intents and purposes looking from the Junior side of the fence, the LL is a rebooted version of the old EoS Premier, with a few South and newly established West teams added to the mix. Without wanting to get into the politics of why the Juniors didn't apply to join, which has been going around in circles on here for a couple of years now and frankly got boring a couple of months in, the problem remains that the LL isn't representative of either the demographics of the area it covers or the best of the non-league game in that area - there's at least half a dozen teams in it that are just making up the numbers and wouldn't be in anyone's list of the top twenty or so non-league sides south of the Tay . How things could be rectified at this late stage, I don't know - positions now seem too entrenched on either side for there to be a rapprochement it's a shame how things have panned out, and to my way of thinking a real opportunity missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmania Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Prime example Lothian Thistle beating Kelty Hearts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 We've done structure to death on here. It is what it is - bollocks though that may be. The Lowland League is Tier 5 in the structure of Scottish football. Junior football doesn't have a rating - it sits below the EOS and SoS leagues which are Tier 6. We know that in terms of standards on the pitch, the top Junior leagues are as good as or better than the Lowland and Highland Leagues. But the refusal to engage meaningfully means that Junior football will be sold short in the long term. In reasonably short order the better Lowland League clubs will be able to outbid Junior teams when it comes to attracting players - particularly if any of them attract Hurlford-esque backing. That seems inevitable to me before we're all much older. A sensible version of Gretna will emerge and maybe somewhere like East Kilbride is a decent place for it to happen. There really isn't any reason to invest in a Junior team - and many will be glad to avoid the risk of a charlatan arriving. But look at Talbot. Loads of success racked up in recent seasons but they're thumping a ceiling. Which is fine for their support who have made it clear that winning stuff in their current grade is better than travelling further to meet increasingly tougher opposition. I'd jump to the Lowland League tomorrow given half a chance. And I think if Bo'ness got their act together, got licenced and made the same leap - assuming it could be made which now seems unlikely - I think there would be less resistance from many of our supporters. At the end of the day, few teams bring a big support to Prestonfield these days - certainly not enough to be concerned about which league we're in. The Junior Cup remains a massive attraction though for all its flaws. So there will never be consensus. Which usually means things stay the same because of the fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Prime example Lothian Thistle beating Kelty Hearts Exactly - they've come on leaps and bounds in the last few years, but neither they or the other teams in the top three or four of the EoS will get in the LL - nothing to do with playing ability, but due to licensing. Leith and Heriot-Watt play in caged 3Gs with little in the way of spectator facilties, and Peebles play in a public park, albeit with a stand. I genuinely don't know what the long term future is for the EoS - they're down to one division now, and all it will take is for a few more to go Junior like Easthouses or amateur like Kelso, or for the LL teams to pull their reserve sides out and the whole thing will become unviable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 This topic really depends on what you're meaning. OP uses "grade" but that's the difference between Senior, Junior, Amateur and Welfare - not clear hierarchies. Pyramid tiers? Ultimately the Juniors don't have a position in the pyramid at all - they aren't in it. In effect the SPFL, HL, LL, EOSL and SOSL represent a tower block with 6 floors... while the Juniors are in a house on the other side of the street. Or in the basement. Playing standards? Results in the Scottish Cup between champion Juniors and the full spectrum of HL/LL/EOSL/SOSL indicate that top-end playing standards are similar. Strength-in-depth is clearly different, although probably not if measured proportionately. Facilities? In terms of facilities virtually all HL/LL clubs are licensed, with the last 2 imminent, as are a few EOSL/SOSL with more imminent - meanwhile only 2 Juniors are licensed and not that many have comparable facilities now. However many Junior facilities outstrip EOSL/SOSL (albeit EOSL improving). I pleases me that a pyramid system has finally been introduced for Scottish football but it saddens me that so far it has been a pyramid only of Senior football. There is already a well functioning pyramid system in Junior football operating at regional and district levels and there is surely no logic in having two competing systems overlap. To resolve that issue really requires 2 things... one, sorting out things between HL & LL and the top-end Juniors (which could be as simple as connecting the Superleagues to the HL & LL: but probably requires something more elaborate for the West & East Juniors); and two, absorbing the EOSL & SOSL into the West & East Juniors. I think it will happen but not any time soon. As regards what happened with the pyramid actually established, and particularly LL: on the one hand it is clearly far from perfect and we can all identify flaws and bemoan the Juniors staying outside. On the other hand, it is better to have something rather than have nothing... what if talking had gone on for X more years only for it all to have been blocked, or things have turned out the same. At least it exists - and it can be adjusted subsequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glensmad Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 How long till mick90 makes an appearance and starts insulting everybody again ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 How long till mick90 makes an appearance and starts insulting everybody again ? I don't know. Anyway getting back to the topic, for me it's fascinating. Personally I would love to say with confidence that the Juniors are ahead of the Lowland league both on and off the field. Sadly that is not the case though as results in the WH Scottish Cup have shown and the set up of clubs. Even more sadly I have to agree with HTG on his point about the Juniors being left behind. I think I'm one of the few Talbot fans who would love to see the club having bigger ambitions. It's been amazing to be part of the success of Auchinleck as a football club and it's sustained nature over so many years, but they are a club with ambition but of a limited nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan of the juniors Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Don't think the juniors will join en mass as it isn't viable cost wise for a lot of the clubs You might find 1 or 2 leaving to join the ll but don't see many taking that option The junior hierarchy will be against if as they will lose their well paid positions of power As I've stated in other threads the ll was created to preserve the status of the East Stirlings of this world who in a normal pyramid system in the English style would have disappears into the regional system long ago without their yearly handouts Would I be in favour of Ladeside joining in this current system no . But if it was changed into a fair & proper pyramid then no doubt I would Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Don't think the juniors will join en mass as it isn't viable cost wise for a lot of the clubs You might find 1 or 2 leaving to join the ll but don't see many taking that option The junior hierarchy will be against if as they will lose their well paid positions of power As I've stated in other threads the ll was created to preserve the status of the East Stirlings of this world who in a normal pyramid system in the English style would have disappears into the regional system long ago without their yearly handouts Would I be in favour of Ladeside joining in this current system no . But if it was changed into a fair & proper pyramid then no doubt I would Where is the current pyramid system unfair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan of the juniors Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Where is the current pyramid system unfair? Where did I state that it was unfair? I said it was put in place to preserve the status of the likes of East Stirling A proper pyramid system is 1 where you can start at public park level & work your way up theoretically go all the way to the top league in your country At the moment it is teams who have basically been hand picked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz5 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 And to be fair, there is a fair element of protectionism in its current form for 3rd division clubs. You always know, regardless of how poor a season, you only have to win over 2 legs to stay up (as Montrose did last season). A proper pyramid would see the bottom team relegated to their regional league regardless, with the winners of the HL/LL playoff going up. I don't think there's any part of a proper pyramid anywhere else (that I can think of) where the bottom team gets a lifeline, what's they are clear favourites, like that. In terms of the quality, having spent most of my life in the Juniors and now having seen near half a season at Lowland level, I don't think there's much in it quality wise. If you are looking for a competitive league of 18 take the top 6 finishers in East/West/Lowland and you would have a very good league based on what I've seen. The others from each league in an East/West regional league below that, with EOS and SOS included would be close enough to super first level in the West. The major difference, from what I've seen, is facilities. A couple of Lowland teams aside, facilities at LL level are far in advance of the Juniors and I think that's where a lot (not all obviously) of the Junior teams would struggle to join that proposed setup: meeting the licensing requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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