pheasant plucker Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I'm sure there will have been discussion on this topic before but Amateur side Harestanes v Girvan in Senior Scottish Cup caught my attention today (if I've got it right). Personally I struggle to follow the whole set up now with who qualifies to play in the 'big cup'. The whole 'membership' process where sides like Girvan etc who, I believe, pay an annual subscription and have a wall around their ground, are allowed to play in 2 Scottish Cup's is a bit of a joke. I assume Harestanes won the Scottish Am's Cup? - but see they didn't play at their own ground today. As a Junior follower I have noticed the negative impact that some sides having more fixtures than others causes to League programmes with sides sitting idle and falling behind with fixtures through no fault of their own - often compounded when the weather turns. I initially thought the introduction of the 'bonus' for top league winners and the Junior Cup winners was a decent enough 'experiment' but I now think it become a bit of a farce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrellburn Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I think the whole idea of admitting these amatuer, junior,lower senior league clubs is to make it more like the FA cup south of rthe border. It is undoubtably a much more successful competition than its Scottish counterpart with the occasional "giant killing" club creating a lot of added interest. I caught the second half of the Harestanes/ Girvan game today and the amatuer side aquitted themselves very well despite eventually going down 3-0. It was only a very late Girvan goal that finally killed them off. Not that I rate Girvans' chances of going very much further all that great but the very fact that they, and presumably at least another couple of juniors will go into the hat for the next round adds something to the competition (I havn't seen the results of the other games as yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertha/BJFC1938 Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Got to agree with the OP here as for me you should be in the senior Scottish cup in merit only. It's getting a complete farce when a team are entering it and not even playing the first round tie at their own ground. Where's the merit in this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markka Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Got to agree with the OP here as for me you should be in the senior Scottish cup in merit only. It's getting a complete farce when a team are entering it and not even playing the first round tie at their own ground. Where's the merit in this? I'm unsure whether this is some sort of attempt at sarcasm? I think Harestanes won the Amateur Cup and therefore qualified on merit, Girvan though have the old associate membership or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngo Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Merit doesn't have anything to do with it. Much like teams 'qualify' to play in the Scottish Junior Cup by being members of the SJFA, members of the SFA 'qualify' to play in the Scottish Football Association Challenge Cup. The only difference being that the SFA invite a few members of other associations to play as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRoyGuy Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I'm unsure whether this is some sort of attempt at sarcasm? I think Harestanes won the Amateur Cup and therefore qualified on merit, Girvan though have the old associate membership or something similar. Harestanes qualified on by winning cup that some 500-600 teams enter. For me if you win a cup with that many teams in it you have earned a crack at the senior cup. Weather or not you can play the game at your own ground is irrelevant. As for a lot of other teams being given the chance to enter, that can only be a good thing, certainly can't do any harm to the game as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertha/BJFC1938 Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I'm unsure whether this is some sort of attempt at sarcasm? I think Harestanes won the Amateur Cup and therefore qualified on merit, Girvan though have the old associate membership or something similar. I've nothing against amateur teams getting in but surely there needs to be some sort of ground criteria that allows you to play the game at your own ground rather than switching to duncansfield? Makes a bit of a mockery of it if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRoyGuy Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I've nothing against amateur teams getting in but surely there needs to be some sort of ground criteria that allows you to play the game at your own ground rather than switching to duncansfield? Makes a bit of a mockery of it if you ask me. Why, you can't expect an amateur side to play out of and maintain an actual enclosed ground. They hired out the nearest available ground to where they are based, a good crowd from kirky went through to watch and it was a decent day all in. Similar to a smaller Scottish highland League Club like Cove or Keith getting rangers or Celtic and moving it to pittodre, sometimes you need to be practical as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auldgeezer Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I agree, i cant ubderstand the logic of allowing the Scottish Amateur winners in the Senior Scottish. Still a big difference in standards between amateur and junior and especially the issue about having our own park/ground etc. All very well having a pyramid system but has to be sensible! Good luck to Girvan in the next round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertha/BJFC1938 Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Why, you can't expect an amateur side to play out of and maintain an actual enclosed ground. They hired out the nearest available ground to where they are based, a good crowd from kirky went through to watch and it was a decent day all in. Similar to a smaller Scottish highland League Club like Cove or Keith getting rangers or Celtic and moving it to pittodre, sometimes you need to be practical as well. It's just my opinion that if your ground isn't up to the criteria of hosting a first round scottish senior cup game on a Saturday in broad daylight then you shouldn't be in the competition . I've no problem with for example amateur clubs like viewfield rovers ( lochwinnoch based) playing in the senior Scottish as they've got an enclosed ground that they've done loads of work on and one that beats some junior clubs grounds . Just my opinion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertha/BJFC1938 Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I agree, i cant ubderstand the logic of allowing the Scottish Amateur winners in the Senior Scottish. Still a big difference in standards between amateur and junior and especially the issue about having our own park/ground etc. All very well having a pyramid system but has to be sensible! Good luck to Girvan in the next round Maybe it would have been more logical for the amateur cup winners to go into the junior cup first round draw? That way they're only stepping up one level rather than two levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRoyGuy Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 It's just my opinion that if your ground isn't up to the criteria of hosting a first round scottish senior cup game on a Saturday in broad daylight then you shouldn't be in the competition . I've no problem with for example amateur clubs like viewfield rovers ( lochwinnoch based) playing in the senior Scottish as they've got an enclosed ground that they've done loads of work on and one that beats some junior clubs grounds . Just my opinion . Being a bit pedantic it wasn't a first round tie, it was a prelim tie before the actual first round. Harestanes play at a big grass park, with a pavilion and floodlights the problem was there area around the park where there was three ways to get into the complex over a fair area and it was more hassle than it was worth to get the game played there. If a small senior side ground got a Celtic rangers hearts or Aberdeen but the ground isn't seen as suitable of hosting these teams and they have to move it to a bigger ground, are these teams worthy of playing in the same rounds as the big clubs ? Albion rovers moved there Scottish cup tie against on motherwell to new Douglas Park, does that mean they are not worthy to be in the later stage of the cup? Just think you are being very harsh in you opinion but accept everyone has the right to have an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auldgeezer Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Lets be honest RobRoyGuy, and please be serious about this...Harestanes park is not great, fair play they won Scottish Amateur cup (they won it two years in a row a while ago) but for the Senior Scottish, préliminaries or not, not the best scénario. Not a ground that's suitable nor a team that's good enough. The blame has to lie with SFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertha/BJFC1938 Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Being a bit pedantic it wasn't a first round tie, it was a prelim tie before the actual first round. Harestanes play at a big grass park, with a pavilion and floodlights the problem was there area around the park where there was three ways to get into the complex over a fair area and it was more hassle than it was worth to get the game played there. If a small senior side ground got a Celtic rangers hearts or Aberdeen but the ground isn't seen as suitable of hosting these teams and they have to move it to a bigger ground, are these teams worthy of playing in the same rounds as the big clubs ? Albion rovers moved there Scottish cup tie against on motherwell to new Douglas Park, does that mean they are not worthy to be in the later stage of the cup? Just think you are being very harsh in you opinion but accept everyone has the right to have an opinion. Keith , cove , Albion rovers etc moving a tie to another senior ground if they're drawn against Celtic , Rangers Aberdeen etc isn't comparable nor relative in this debate for me as all these clubs have got the basic requirements to host scottish senior cup ties and deserve to be in the senior cup partly as their grounds merit it and it's not because they CANT host games. I just think amateur teams now playing in the Scottish cup is a step too far and yes the lack of enclosed grounds is a big part for me , dont you think it would be more of a natural progression for the amateur Scottish cup winners to enter the Scottish junior cup rather than stepping up two levels and into the senior cup? What's next the lady darling cup winners going into the senior Scottish cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRoyGuy Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Lets be honest RobRoyGuy, and please be serious about this...Harestanes park is not great, fair play they won Scottish Amateur cup (they won it two years in a row a while ago) but for the Senior Scottish, préliminaries or not, not the best scénario. Not a ground that's suitable nor a team that's good enough. The blame has to lie with SFAI never said where they played was suitable. I pointed out why it wasn't. As for not being good enough that's just silly there will have been loads of clubs of far less ability playing in the early rounds of the Scottish over the years I won't name the type of teams but i am sure you get what type of teams i mean. This is a club who represented a grade of football with over 600 clubs, thousands of players, having one club from this grade playing in the senior Scottish cup is a great idea, I mean come on one club that's all they are getting what harm can that do, non. What would make more of a mockery of the cup for me Hertha is letting clubs like you mention represent a grade of football in the senior cup just because they have a decent ground, not what they can do on the park itself, which at the end of the day is the most important thing for showing a grade in a good light. I mean god forbid you wouldn't have liked it if airdrie fans had said this club don't deserve to be playing us in the senior Scottish cup look at the ground and the slope , this isn't right. You deserved to have played them because of what you were on the park, one of the best two or three sides in Scotland at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRoyGuy Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Keith , cove , Albion rovers etc moving a tie to another senior ground if they're drawn against Celtic , Rangers Aberdeen etc isn't comparable nor relative in this debate for me as all these clubs have got the basic requirements to host scottish senior cup ties and deserve to be in the senior cup partly as their grounds merit it and it's not because they CANT host games. I just think amateur teams now playing in the Scottish cup is a step too far and yes the lack of enclosed grounds is a big part for me , dont you think it would be more of a natural progression for the amateur Scottish cup winners to enter the Scottish junior cup rather than stepping up two levels and into the senior cup? What's next the lady darling cup winners going into the senior Scottish cup? You obviously not going to have an under 21 side playing in a senior cup competing, obviously you stop at the amateur grade. One side able to represent a massive proportion of our national game is surely a good thing. If harestanes had been put into the Junior Cup they would still have had to move it to a enclosed ground like they did today. My point is again making concessions and allowing a amateur club who for the record handled things today extremely well to play at a nearby ground is a worthwhile concession to make given what they represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Albion Rovers was unusual as they couldn't segregate Cliftonhill, and it caused plenty controversy. Next previous case was Whitehill over 20yrs ago? However, I don't see the problem with admitting the Scottish Amateur Cup winners. There are provisions in the rules regarding the grounds of qualifiers (Senior, Junior or Amateurs) up to and including R4. They are fairly minimal. Some Juniors, particularly North Region, might not meet them either. Crichton - who qualified as SOSL winners in 2008 - didn't meet them but only got drawn away. Wasn't any Talbot-Hearts replay to be at Kilmarnock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertha/BJFC1938 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I never said where they played was suitable. I pointed out why it wasn't. As for not being good enough that's just silly there will have been loads of clubs of far less ability playing in the early rounds of the Scottish over the years I won't name the type of teams but i am sure you get what type of teams i mean. This is a club who represented a grade of football with over 600 clubs, thousands of players, having one club from this grade playing in the senior Scottish cup is a great idea, I mean come on one club that's all they are getting what harm can that do, non. What would make more of a mockery of the cup for me Hertha is letting clubs like you mention represent a grade of football in the senior cup just because they have a decent ground, not what they can do on the park itself, which at the end of the day is the most important thing for showing a grade in a good light. I mean god forbid you wouldn't have liked it if airdrie fans had said this club don't deserve to be playing us in the senior Scottish cup look at the ground and the slope , this isn't right. You deserved to have played them because of what you were on the park, one of the best two or three sides in Scotland at the time. A few airdrie fans did and it didn't bother me in the slightest . My point is that a club who play in the senior Scottish cup should fit the entry by having a ground that is deemed suitable without the need of a switch in the pre-lim / first round stage . Yes further down the line junior teams / highland league teams / lowland league teams could reach a stage where a switch is necessary but for me your ground should be up to scratch for a first round requirement . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pheasant plucker Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 Where will this cuddly inclusiveness end? The Dog & Duck Sunday league cup winners - Auchenshoogle Ladies - Craiglang under 15's. One of the points I was trying to make was the mess this can make of the league the team belongs to with fixture imbalances and the silliness of clubs playing in multiple Scottish Cup's at different levels. The Scottish structure is surely a million miles away from the English pyramid situ. As a I previously mentioned I find it a bit ridiculous that Junior clubs can buy their way into the top cup competition if they chose to do so without winning heehaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
info Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 As from next season if you dont have an SFA club licence or be very close to one you will not be able to play in the Scottish cup as far as I can make out . However the SFA have been known to change or adapt the rules especially if you have money and come from the central belt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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