FortyMile Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I've read loads of stuff about how the Academy system is failing south of the border and there are a lot of articles with the stats to back up that assertion. Much of the same has been said about the fact that the Academy system here is also failing but I've not seen any statistics to show a similar trend. I guess that success and failure is all relative, but when I see the likes of Hearts and Accies doing so well with home grown talent it makes me wonder whether the claims of failure are being exaggerated. Look at McLeod who has just gone south and the Gauld who made his debut for Sporting Lisbon last week. It's not all bad news. Just wondering. Has anyone seen any articles which show the number or %age of kids making it in our game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr Utd Youth Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The " Academy system " can only be a success if first team managers play the Youth players at 16 , 17 and 18. As Hamilton Accies , Hearts , Dundee Utd show this can be done successfully . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The academy system in England probably fails as the teams there have so much money they can buy the best talent from overseas. It wouldn't surprise me if one of the big teams abandons their academy altogether, although I'm not sure whether having one is a requirement of the Premiership. How many guys are coming through the academies of Man United, Chelsea or Arsenal for example are staking a permanent place in those teams' first elevens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 Diehard; that's the problem exactly. You've hit the nail on the head but the Scottish situation is very different where clubs have to develop players due to the lack of cash. The point being that both Scotland and England may be failing but for very different reasons. Only 1% of youngsters in England ever see pro football but we must be doing a lot better than that when you look t the demographics. It's fair to say though that a lot of young players flouirish after leaving the original club. If you take James Keatings for example, he had already been at Celtic and Hamilton before establishing himself at Tynecastle. I'm sure if the bigger English clubs are being foreced to run academies but Exeter City gave up the ghost because they felt it was doing no good for the kids or the club either. The problem seems to me that they put the development of youngsters in the hands of the clubs because they thought it would be better than having kids coached by teachers. The clubs went out and hired the teachers and made them pro coaches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The academy system in England probably fails as the teams there have so much money they can buy the best talent from overseas. It wouldn't surprise me if one of the big teams abandons their academy altogether, although I'm not sure whether having one is a requirement of the Premiership. How many guys are coming through the academies of Man United, Chelsea or Arsenal for example are staking a permanent place in those teams' first elevens? I think for the the big sides its a case of being desperate to have the next superstar breaking through, they can pick up squad or even good first 11 players up easily enough from other sides, but the one star player is harder to come by, and once they do end up at one of the elite clubs they tend to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 That's very true, but the likes of Gerrard and Terry are few and far between these days, and to some extent, whether they stay for their entire career is irrelevant because they can be sold for big money if they leave. Here's an article about playing time in the UK leagues which makes interesting reading. In Scotland almost 80% of playing time goes to Scots, English, Welsh and N Irish players compared to < 40% in England. It's interesting reading. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24464020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 Ayr United. Don't you think that Hearts situation is unusual though? A lot of the young lads probably wouldn't have been given a chance if they hadn't gone into administration. The likes of Holt, Walker, Patterson and co might still have been playing somewhere else or in U20s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr Utd Youth Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Jason Holt was always a standout. Used to watch him play probably U19S or U17S three or four years ago and you could see he was going to be a player. Agree the Hearts situation was unusual and YES alot of kids got 1st Team experience earlier than they would have normally but boy that Club is going places now and reaping the reward. On the other side of the coin , a Club that had a chance to promote Youth and finally make a success of Murray Park has shown that for whatever reason they will never promote Youth from within in great numbers which is a real shame considering they had the chance to rebuild from the Youth up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-r-cfc Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I think we may be turning a corner now with clubs forced to promote from youth but if you take the pro youth system as a whole then for all the years it's been in place, how many top players has it produced? The answer is not many so it has been a failure thus far but we have a chance to really make it work now and hopefully it does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Ayr and Paul. Yes, absolutely. It would be great to think that the likes of Hearts and the Accies will continue to produce good youngsters and give them the chance, but it's early days for both of these clubs to be held aloft as a beacon for all to follow. Particularly after today's news that Alex Neil is to be the new manager at Norwich City. He's done exceptionally well, and although I would wish the lad the very best of luck it's so disappointing to see Scottish talent leaving. Accies now have a big challenge with enormous boots to fill and they need to be really careful to make the right appointment to fill AN's shoes adequately. Accies fans will be crapping themselves thinking that the first items on his shopping list this window might include the names, Hendrie and Gordon as well as a couple more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr Utd Youth Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Is the Academy System working , personally I think it is as more and more Scottish youngsters are getting a chance and one or two are now being exported to the very top level , Robertson in the EPL with Hull City , Gauld to Sporting Lisbon are the two leading lights but there are more behind them. Cracking Youth Academy game tomorrow in store at u17s . 11am ko Murray Park. Rangers v Ayr United. Have seen some great talent over the seasons ,and tomorrow mornings match should be another good one , the kids are still there but the difference now is that at some of our Clubs 1st Team managers are putting them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 That sounds like a belter mate! I think what it's easy to forget is the size of the population in Scotland. If clubs are going to run a full academy on the basis that CAS regulates, then obviously there are a lot of kids who are going to go through the system with no hope of making it. Those kids need to be there to make up the numbers for the kids who are in with a real chance. I've had my doubts about these collaborative academies such as the Fife model. but Kenny Shiels was on Off the Ball last weekend talking about why it's a good thing.His point was that if all clubs were running a full academy system it would mean 4000 players involved. There aren't that many elite players in Spain, Germany or France let alone Scotland, so his view was that it was a positive thing, as resources were being aimed at the kids most likely to have a chance to go all the way. For many years it seemed that very few of our players were good enough to move on to stronger leagues but there are a few more now than say 10 or 15 years ago. Maybe we have to think more about the lads that do make it rather than those that don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr Utd Youth Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 QUOTE " Maybe we have to think more about the lads that do make it rather than those that don't! " Fortymile - Very good point , only a very small percentage of the boys I watched play this morning will ever make a living from the game , there may not even be one that's how tough a game it is ! However I watched the above game this morning and would give enormous credit to all u17s players from both Rangers FC and Ayr Utd FC for putting on an entertaining game of football in what can only be described as atrocious conditions. Both sides attempted to play the game in the right manner and every player on that park this morning deserves credit as do all the parents and spectators who braved the elements lol. Ayr won it 2-1 at the death with a cracking 25 yarder from Jai Holland but as I say every player on that park deserves praise today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 QUOTE " Maybe we have to think more about the lads that do make it rather than those that don't! " Fortymile - Very good point , only a very small percentage of the boys I watched play this morning will ever make a living from the game , there may not even be one that's how tough a game it is ! However I watched the above game this morning and would give enormous credit to all u17s players from both Rangers FC and Ayr Utd FC for putting on an entertaining game of football in what can only be described as atrocious conditions. Both sides attempted to play the game in the right manner and every player on that park this morning deserves credit as do all the parents and spectators who braved the elements lol. Ayr won it 2-1 at the death with a cracking 25 yarder from Jai Holland but as I say every player on that park deserves praise today. Did i hear they remain unbeaten this season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr Utd Youth Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Did i hear they remain unbeaten this season? Only since 17s went competitive , they are top of their league with a 100% record. The game against Rangers today was a " friendly ". They have played other " Elite " Academies earlier in season 2014/2015 beating St Mirren 5 - 1 and going down 2-1 to Celtic at Barrowfield. They are a good squad of boys though , just hang on for 2 to 3 years ITZDRK !!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sounds like a cracking game in the bad weather. You don't feel the cold so much when it's a good game of football though eh? They Ayr lads are clearly doing something right if they are getting results like those you mention above. The important thing is, that the youngsters are encouraged to play the ball on the floor far more than when we were wee uns. Looking back, there was little science or craft in the play apart from when you had a decent winger (the tanner ball players) who would show a bit of magic and take on the full backs, who would often just lunge forward in the mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Is the Academy System working , personally I think it is as more and more Scottish youngsters are getting a chance and one or two are now being exported to the very top level , Robertson in the EPL with Hull City , Gauld to Sporting Lisbon are the two leading lights but there are more behind them. Robertson is probably not a good example of the Academy System working, I have to say. The Celtic academy let him go because he was too wee. Ditto his teammates at QP, Blair Spittal (D United) and Lawrence Shankland (Aberdeen) who were also let go by the Old Firm. Unfortunately the new academy system excludes Queen's Park (currently in the top 12 Scottish teams for developing guys for first team football), as we cannot provide a path into full time employment. maybe the academy system will work for the full time clubs, but we remain to see how it will affect us. We have a terrific youth set-up, cutting edge facilities and our head of youth development now has a UEFA qualification; to that you can add all the players that we have produced in the past ten years. But we are now excluded from the top flight in youth football in favour of sides who are streets behind us in terms of youth development, but who are full time. Rant over!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 HD. That's a real shame. The grading or rating of the academies is really just geared to helping the bigger clubs stay at the top of the tree, irrespective of whether they produce players or not. When it comes down to brass tacks, all youngsters need is a decent field with posts, a ball and good coaches who can help them become better players. The rest of it isn't much more than glitter. The bigger clubs can often offer more convencience to parents with arranging to pick up and drop kids home after practices etc, as well as better facilities etc, but the most important thing is in the people running the teams and helping the young 'uns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I appreciate there may be difficulties due to concerns of making things too 'competitive' but I'd like to see some form of promotion / relegation in the youth development system, with various criteria. That should allow the likes of QP to get themselves into the top level - and also some of the non-league clubs to play at a level more suitable for them. Taking the U20s as an example... there is currently the Scottish Development League (mandatory for Premiership clubs / select others allowed); East & West U20 development leagues; plus Aberdeenshire & EOS U20 development leagues which despite the names are basically HL & LL in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Good point Hibee. It seems to me that there is a real isssue here because the size and stature of a club doesn't necessarily equate with the talent at its disposal in an academy system (or maybe that would have been better expressed the other way around). The purpose of the CAS system is to maintain the pecking order of the clubs as represented by the first team. The last thing they would want to see would be QP turning over the Old Firm and the rest. If that did happen then they would change the rules so that it couldn't happen again. They have an interest in maintaining the status quo. I know where you are coming from because there are Boys Clubs teams capable of more than matching some of the Academy teams run by the pros. Anyone watching boys football will have seen that happen. For me, the lack of competitiveness comes from the fact that given the population and therefore the relatively small numner of kids to choose from, you end up with teams carrying passengers in some year groups. That doesn't help anyone at all. There are too many players playing at Academy level. They simply can't all be good enough. That's the same in England as well, when you see the numbers quoted "10,000 players and only 1% make it" etc. Its enough to put any wee'un off having a go. When the Regional Academies were started in the last year or two, I thought it seemed like a daft idea but I've come to the conclusion that it's a VERY GOOD idea because it means that the kids should all be of a similarly high standard. That has to be a good thing. That's not to say that kids who are not quite good enough to play at that level shouldn't have access to decent facilities and coaching which allows them to get up there if they progress. I think that we are in strong agreement here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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