shootingboots Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Get rid of the seeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_K_97 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Funnily enough it seems the league are thinking about returning to regionalised fixtures. I'm not too sure what I think of this at present. http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/kilmarnock/307085-regionalised-league-cup-could-be-in-place-by-2016-after-spfl-talks/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I suppose it depends on your perspective. Would playing more competitive matches during July be better than friendlies - in terms of crowds and income? Probably yes. Is regionalisation (depending how its done) very fair; is making the season even longer very good; and are groupstages exciting? Probably no. It'd basically be a return to the system in place from 1975 to the early 1980s, with groups opening the season followed by 4x playing leagues. That was replaced by a knockout format, since the groups created too many meaningless games and the clubs weren't treating them seriously = low interest. An equivalent of this was also tried in the mid-1960s, the Summer Cup, with 4 groups of 4 filled with derbies, but it didn't work. Neither did the Spring Cup of 1976. However those were both played off the end of the season, not the start, and as separate cups. My guess is that a return to that format would be initially different/exciting, even if semi-friendlies... but face the same issues longer-term. Interesting to see how it would work with 42 clubs, too. Big clubs in sections of 3 so they can play a glamour friendly on 1 date? Personally I'd just start the league in later July. But SPL tried that then stopped, and SPFL rulebook doesn't allow league games before July 31st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_K_97 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I suppose it depends on your perspective. Would playing more competitive matches during July be better than friendlies - in terms of crowds and income? Probably yes. Is regionalisation (depending how its done) very fair; is making the season even longer very good; and are groupstages exciting? Probably no. It'd basically be a return to the system in place from 1975 to the early 1980s, with groups opening the season followed by 4x playing leagues. That was replaced by a knockout format, since the groups created too many meaningless games and the clubs weren't treating them seriously = low interest. An equivalent of this was also tried in the mid-1960s, the Summer Cup, with 4 groups of 4 filled with derbies, but it didn't work. Neither did the Spring Cup of 1976. However those were both played off the end of the season, not the start, and as separate cups. My guess is that a return to that format, but with more 'derbies', would be initially different/exciting... but face the same issues longer-term. Interesting to see how it would work with 42 clubs, too. Stick the big clubs into sections of 3 so they can play a glamour friendly on 1 date, too? Aye, my worry is the format would feel stale by 2020. In any case I'd welcome more derbies in the short-term, I've only ever been to a handful of Ayrshire derbies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lanarkshire Jag Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Like most people have said, it depends how they "regionalise" it. If it's the same groups over and over then it'd be a massive no from me. If it is divided into geographical sections(North, South, East and West) with fresh groups being drawn every year it'd possibly work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Much would depend on how they arranged things: your fear is always that a potentially interesting idea (even if it has flaws and long-term issues) gets mauled by committees trying to please all stakeholders and maximise £££. For example: would 'regionalisation' be watered-down by the big clubs wanting similar numbers of Premiership clubs across each section? Would managers be allowed to use several triallists, 5 or 6 subs, and so on? Would fans treat it like the proper action starting a couple of weeks early, or would it just seem like an expanded series of Renfrewshire Cup Finals and Challenge Cup R1 ties? As I mentioned, 42 clubs is a horrid number to deal with format-wise, too. It doesn't even divide by 4, and it doesn't easily provide a Last 8 or 16. And you couldn't really have a Preliminary Round, as the eliminated clubs would have nothing to do for a couple of weeks. Like most people have said, it depends how they "regionalise" it. If it's the same groups over and over then it'd be a massive no from me. If it is divided into geographical sections(North, South, East and West) with fresh groups being drawn every year it'd possibly work. Doing it either way has problems!! Genuinely local sections could become boring and knock the pan out of derbies, and might be unfair sportingly (e.g. the 4 Angus clubs are currently in Leagues 1 & 2; the 3 Tayside clubs are currently in the Premiership). But having wider regional limits, and perhaps a form of seeding, makes less likely those very derbies which give it half a chance of being interesting (people aren't going to be excited by sections like Kilmarnock, Morton, Stranraer & Annan or say Inverness, Brechin & Peterhead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 It's a contingency plan in case you-know-who doesn't make it up to the top league next season; I predict a 16 team league and this fucking abortion for a few years to pad out the fixtures until *they* have managed to cheat buy play themselves into a regular challenge again, at which point the groups will dumped for the horrible nonsense they are and the league is re-sized to a 10 and everyone else can go f**k themselves.... ... probably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Bad idea, there's a few things I'd like to see changed about the league cup, but it's fine as a national knock out competition. Challenge cup r1 and to a slightly lesser extent round 1 of the league cup are already seen as a bit of an extended pre-season,having group stages would just make it worse. It would devalue the early stages of the completion and in turn mean the whole thing is treated less seriously, no thanks. More chance of/guaranteed derbys may sound exciting but unless clubs are close to each other in terms of ability it won't be long until the fixtures are seen as boring for fans, with the lesser side dreading another loss and the better side having little to gain from the fixture. If the teams are close in ability then they will likely be in the same league with the league cup group fixture seen as the least important game, again that leads to lack of interest. And If it was just regionalised like the challenge cup is then there's other problems, traditional rivals could well be in different sections for a start and for the central belt clubs being in one region over another matters little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I notice that none of the papers nor the BBC even seem to have bothered picking the story up!! I also notice that STV said each club would get 2 matches, so maybe it'll be groups of 3? e.g. invite 6 non-leaguers, 4 regions, part-seeded draw, Saturday-Wednesday-Saturday, winners into Last 16: North A ... Aberdeen / Peterhead / Brora North B ... Forfar / Montrose / Elgin North C ... Inverness / Brechin / Turriff North D ... Ross County / Arbroath / Wick East A ... Dundee / Raith / Berwick East B ... Dundee Utd / Livingston / Dunfermline East C ... Hearts / Hibs / East Fife East D ... St Johnstone / Cowdenbeath / Edinburgh City Central A ... Dumbarton / Stirling Albion / Albion Rovers Central B ... Falkirk / Stenhousemuir / Clyde Central C ... Hamilton / Alloa / East Kilbride Central D ... Motherwell / Airdrie / East Stirlingshire West A ... Celtic / Stranraer / Annan West B ... Kilmarnock / Rangers / Ayr West C ... Partick / Queen of the South / Gretna West D ... St Mirren / Morton / Queen's Park Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Ten groups of 4 with 1st and 2nd from the top flight getting a bye. Let's assume Aberdeen and Celtic finish top 2 and there's no relegation from League 2 this season.... Next season could look like: Saints Killie Ayr Morton New Club Partick Dumbarton Queens Park Dundee Dundee Utd Brechin Montrose QOTS Accies Annan Stranraer Hearts Hibs Livi Berwick ICT Ross County Elgin Peterhead Motherwell Airdrie Albion Rovers East Stirling St Johnstone Alloa Arbroath Forfar Falkirk Clyde Stirling Albion Stenny Dunfermline Raith Cowden East Fife Some groups far easier than others, and not perfect geographically. Could work though! Ten group winners and four best second placed teams go through. Best to start the games early and have them instead of a couple of friendlies, a lot of these fixtures take place as pre season matches anyway. Summer football and some competitive local games and derbies, crowds should be pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Not terrible ideas to be fair. Where was it reported they are considering a reboot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This thread originated from before the report. Everyone thinks RabidAl is a nutter, for constantly coming up with wacky ways to rejig the league and the cups. (I say that... maybe he's actually Neil Doncaster testing the water ...). I've only seen it carried on STV yesterday, reporting it wouldn't happen until 2016-17 at the earliest, would involve some element of regionalisation, and would provide each club with 2 matches. Michael Johnston of Killie said he thought it was a good idea; Ann Budge of Hearts said she thought it sounded a nice idea - but the smaller clubs had issues with it; they also quote a St Mirren chap sounding more cautious/sceptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Burton Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Not terrible ideas to be fair. Where was it reported they are considering a reboot? Was a small article in a couple of papers about it and quote from the Kilmarnock chairman saying it had been discussed. The papers says there is opposition from smaller clubs to the proposal. I find that a bit strange thought it would be the other way about as with the current format the premier league teams don't come in till later on in the cup. Would it not potentially clash with the teams in the early rounds of the European competitions? Would like to see the seeding removed from the league cup and the Scottish cup returning to its old slot in January getting knocked out the Scottish cup in September or October is bloody depressing. Ideally would like all teams in the Scottish cup from round 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 The papers says there is opposition from smaller clubs to the proposal. I find that a bit strange thought it would be the other way about as with the current format the premier league teams don't come in till later on in the cup. Just a guess, but it would cost part-time clubs more (they often don't pay regular wages May-July), and it's harder to win a groupstage than it is a one-off tie? Would it not potentially clash with the teams in the early rounds of the European competitions? Only if the scheduling included midweek match(es). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I notice that none of the papers nor the BBC even seem to have bothered picking the story up!! I also notice that STV said each club would get 2 matches, so maybe it'll be groups of 3? e.g. invite 6 non-leaguers, 4 regions, part-seeded draw, Saturday-Wednesday-Saturday, winners into Last 16: North A ... Aberdeen / Peterhead / Brora North B ... Forfar / Montrose / Elgin North C ... Inverness / Brechin / Turriff North D ... Ross County / Arbroath / Wick East A ... Dundee / Raith / Berwick East B ... Dundee Utd / Livingston / Dunfermline East C ... Hearts / Hibs / East Fife East D ... St Johnstone / Cowdenbeath / Edinburgh City Central A ... Dumbarton / Stirling Albion / Albion Rovers Central B ... Falkirk / Stenhousemuir / Clyde Central C ... Hamilton / Alloa / East Kilbride Central D ... Motherwell / Airdrie / East Stirlingshire West A ... Celtic / Stranraer / Annan West B ... Kilmarnock / Rangers / Ayr West C ... Partick / Queen of the South / Gretna West D ... St Mirren / Morton / Queen's Park I realise you are just giving an example but Brechin and Inverness?Brechin to Berwick is only 5 miles further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I just split them into 4 regions, then 3 pots according to league position, and drew randomly. Short of pre-deciding all sections, there could always be oddities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Leyenda Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Problem with these groups is are the teams who qualify for European competition not meant to be exempt from the start of the competition? Celtic won't be happy having group games and European qualifiers in July as we all know they like to arrange money spinning tours etc. Would it not be best to just merge the league cup and challenge cup somehow? Maybe the teams who make the last 16 of the challenge cup qualify for next seasons league cup along with the prem teams minus the euro qualifiers. Play round one in July (24 teams), round two in August (16 teams after the 4 euro sides join), quarters in sep, semis oct, final november. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Problem with these groups is are the teams who qualify for European competition not meant to be exempt from the start of the competition? Celtic won't be happy having group games and European qualifiers in July as we all know they like to arrange money spinning tours etc. Would it not be best to just merge the league cup and challenge cup somehow? Maybe the teams who make the last 16 of the challenge cup qualify for next seasons league cup along with the prem teams minus the euro qualifiers. Play round one in July (24 teams), round two in August (16 teams after the 4 euro sides join), quarters in sep, semis oct, final november. Well I would give the top 2 a bye, so Celtic wouldn't be affected. What is the standard complaint when one of our teams gets knocked out by some Icelandic or similar part timers though? It's 'their season started xxx ago, they're up to match fitness and we aren't '. Perhaps this would help them. If not we could always go 9 groups of 4 and give the 4 European qualifiers a bye. I can't see their being any demand from the lower league clubs for scrapping the Challenge Cup. That's extra games and extra income for them, plus the realistic chance of the big final day out and pay day. They wouldn't have that otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 It's going to seem even more like 'glorified pre-season friendlies' if you exempt the European qualifiers from even participating in whatever sort of groupstage was envisaged. If the matches were played on weekends it wouldn't matter, and even in my example of groups of 3 playing Saturday-Wednesday-Saturday you could give the European qualifiers their blank day on the midweek... Officially-speaking, no matches involving top level clubs should be scheduled for European dates, but UEFA seem to allow some exceptions for minor untelevised ties, e.g. League Cup R2s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 It's being suggested that the tournament would start in early July, testing the water for a kinda move to summer football. The Euro clubs would be exempt from the group stages. The obvious problem is with players and holidays at part time clubs. Starting a tournament that clashes with works / school holidays probably isn't a runner. And when would the season end. At the moment, we could be playing on 23rd May if we reach the play off final, and I think that the Cup Final is the weekend after that. If we're going to strap the boots on again in early July, this doesn't give much scope at all for a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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