lonewolfie Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Watching the Celtic v Killie highlights just made me realise how serious an issue dwindling attendances is! The reported official gate of 42,800 was in truth lucky if it was 20,000. This is NOT a dig at Celtic but a point for all Scottish football to mull over. We are doing NO-ONE any favours by reporting season ticket numbers in 'actual' attendance figures. At season's end, we'll get cockwomble Doncaster and his cronies congratulating themselves on a rise in attendances, or at least a stabilising of numbers. The truth as we all know is an alarming drop in real 'bums on seats'. Yes, we can factor in small percentages of season ticket holders who on any given match day are working, on holiday, off sick etc. But clearly there are a large number at ALL clubs who simply can't be arsed attending - despite shelling out hard earned dosh for their season ticket. So the 'product' is NOT attractive generally, only on a selective basis. We need to grasp this nettle sooner rather than later - it's the elephant in the room, guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doink Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Agree could not believe when they put that up as the attendance. Trying to compete with Rangers if you ask me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Give me strength... Celtic are not a typical case - they are infact the epitome of atypical given the current situation with themselves, the scale of their crowds and the absence of Rangers. Furthermore, the comparison of Scottish football crowds season-by-season shows they're not "dwindling" or suffering an "alarming drop", and that comparison is valid whether clubs are reporting tickets sold or people present. It is only an issue if clubs move from one to the other. Few if any have, seemingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolfie Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Oh no, sir! It is indeed misleading when we report that e.g. on a European level that Celtic are way up there with average home gates of I don't know maybe 45,000? When we KNOW that the true figure is WAY BELOW that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 It is misleading, correct, as most people associate "attendance" with people present. Which traditionally it would have been. However, a number of clubs in Scotland have adopted a policy of publishing tickets sold - and some have done so for a long time. It is not, however, evidence for your claim of crowds "dwindling" or suffering an "alarming drop". For 2 reasons. Firstly, Celtic are not an example typical of the broader game at the moment. Secondly, the statistics show otherwise... and the validity of the statistics as a comparison of trends between seasons is not comprised by some clubs publishing tickets sold rather than people present. Celtic themselves have been publishing tickets sold for years - so it's nothing new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alert Mongoose Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Agree could not believe when they put that up as the attendance. Trying to compete with Rangers if you ask me Who are doing exactly the same. One of the most pointless dick waving contests ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForzaDundee Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Looking forward from a fan's point of view, Scottish football is in a better place than when shit hit the fan. Rangers will most likely be back in the Premiership next season which will push up Old Firm crowds.Hearts will also hopefully be back and they seem to have their shit in order so Tynecastle will be full every week. Dundee derbies are always full-houses and great spectacles. Then there's the excitement of the play-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eindhovendee Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Watching the Celtic v Killie highlights just made me realise how serious an issue dwindling attendances is! The reported official gate of 42,800 was in truth lucky if it was 20,000. This is NOT a dig at Celtic but a point for all Scottish football to mull over. We are doing NO-ONE any favours by reporting season ticket numbers in 'actual' attendance figures. At season's end, we'll get cockwomble Doncaster and his cronies congratulating themselves on a rise in attendances, or at least a stabilising of numbers. The truth as we all know is an alarming drop in real 'bums on seats'. Yes, we can factor in small percentages of season ticket holders who on any given match day are working, on holiday, off sick etc. But clearly there are a large number at ALL clubs who simply can't be arsed attending - despite shelling out hard earned dosh for their season ticket. So the 'product' is NOT attractive generally, only on a selective basis. We need to grasp this nettle sooner rather than later - it's the elephant in the room, guys. Not one club has complained about a lack of fans this season and the obvious problem with Celtic is that they are missing their best pals. The fictitious attendances from Celtic are nothing new, they've been as accurate as a two year old doing long division since the 70s and nobody has ever been fooled by them. The elephant in the room for Celtic is how The Rangers get on this season on and off the park. Can Celtic afford to be without them for 3 or 4 more years? Will they slip them a few quid to get them up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussellAnderson Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I just think it's embarrassing from a Celtic point of view to be claiming an attendance of 40k when visibly there are much fewer people in the stadium. Celtic fans, are you embarrassed at your club's policy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 If the seat has been bought and paid for, why should it not count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supras Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 What nations have higher proportional attendances than Scotland? Be specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 What nations have higher proportional attendances than Scotland? Be specific. Really ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Watching the Celtic v Killie highlights just made me realise how serious an issue dwindling attendances is! The reported official gate of 42,800 was in truth lucky if it was 20,000. This is NOT a dig at Celtic but a point for all Scottish football to mull over. We are doing NO-ONE any favours by reporting season ticket numbers in 'actual' attendance figures. At season's end, we'll get cockwomble Doncaster and his cronies congratulating themselves on a rise in attendances, or at least a stabilising of numbers. The truth as we all know is an alarming drop in real 'bums on seats'. Yes, we can factor in small percentages of season ticket holders who on any given match day are working, on holiday, off sick etc. But clearly there are a large number at ALL clubs who simply can't be arsed attending - despite shelling out hard earned dosh for their season ticket. So the 'product' is NOT attractive generally, only on a selective basis. We need to grasp this nettle sooner rather than later - it's the elephant in the room, guys. 42,000 empty seats more like! There were only two sections that were remotely full. The Green Brigade section and the Killie end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 If the seat has been bought and paid for, why should it not count? As it's a match ATTENDANCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Looking forward from a fan's point of view, Scottish football is in a better place than when shit hit the fan. Rangers will most likely be back in the Premiership next season which will push up Old Firm crowds.Hearts will also hopefully be back and they seem to have their shit in order so Tynecastle will be full every week. Dundee derbies are always full-houses and great spectacles. Then there's the excitement of the play-offs. The Rangers being in the Premiership is in no way good for Scottish football. In fact their very existence is a detriment to Scottish football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Jagsfan Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 An acquaintance of mine , who supports Celtic, hasn't been to home games for a month or so. As they play in Europe on a Thursday night, the Saturday games are always rescheduled to a Sunday. He doesn't go, as the Sunday public transport is apparently shit to get home after the match. !? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Celtic's refusal to give accurate attendance figures (attendance, ie, those who ATTENDED) is absolutely pathetic. As far as I can see they have also refused to give attendance figures for their European matches as I can't find any for most of their recent matches. Across the league most 'middle' sized non city teams in Scotland can't get 4,000 fans out on a Saturday, including my own club. We have been operating without a sponsor and it's clear why. No one goes to games. At a time when football has come under attack from more rival entertainments than ever Scottish football is offering up low quality with zero competition at high price. Is it any wonder fans are drifting away in significant numbers? Unfortunately self interest is going to drive the nails into the coffin of Scottish football because we need a radical overhaul, we simply cannot have a competitive league with the current imbalances. We need some kind of system where resources are pooled and shared but currently Celtic would rather squander £11 million pounds on three shitey squad players that do the square root of f**k all that give other clubs an extra £1 million to their budgets enabling them to be better than they are now. I know the short sighted will steam in and say "why should we pay for you?" but right now everyone is dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 "Fans are drifting away in significant numbers" - what are you basing this on? Some clubs are down, others up, but there's no trend of a downward plunge. More clubs have averaged over 3,000... which has often been taken as a reasonable threshold for full-time football although a number of the smaller full-time clubs manage on less... in the last couple of seasons than at any other time in the last half-century. Clubs averaging over the magical 10,000 mark are also in a similar situation. There was a St Johnstone fan on a similar thread last week asserting that crowds were "very much downard" compared to 10yrs ago - when it is clear this is far from the case overall: http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/217822-the-cost-of-football-survey/?p=8869382 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubo_blaha Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 The fact that there are many unnecessarily large stadiums in Scotland probably contributes to this, mainly due to the 10k rule that used to be in place. No disrespect but how are towns the size of Kilmarnock and Motherwell ever going to fill grounds of 18k and 13k respectively? Our crowds per population are amongst the highest in Europe, even if you don't include the gruesome twosome, but you can only realistically expect the city teams to achieve an average of anywhere near 10k+. Also, may be a minor point but having empty areas of the ground in the highlights/live coverage of games just makes it look worse to anyone looking in. For example, at Hearts, Killie and sometimes Well, away fans are often put up right at the back of the stand. While there may be issues here with the price of tickets (Hearts) or with policing/stewarding with fans being closer to the pitch, it looks better to any viewers or potential sponsors. We often close the top deck of the RDS at Pittodrie and this can make the ground look reasonably full with a crowd of around 12k or so. This alone won't increase crowds but it looks better for any potential sponsors/lapsed fans that may be looking in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 "Fans are drifting away in significant numbers" - what are you basing this on? Some clubs are down, others up, but there's no trend of a downward plunge. More clubs have averaged over 3,000... which has often been taken as a reasonable threshold for full-time football although a number of the smaller full-time clubs manage on less... in the last couple of seasons than at any other time in the last half-century. Clubs averaging over the magical 10,000 mark are also in a similar situation. There was a St Johnstone fan on a similar thread last week asserting that crowds were "very much downard" compared to 10yrs ago - when it is clear this is far from the case overall: http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/217822-the-cost-of-football-survey/?p=8869382 I think if you go back 10 years and look at attendance figures almost every club would have experienced a fall. I'm not going to through all the club figures but Motherwell's average attendance between 2004/05 and last season dropped by 1,746 per match. Kilmarnock's dropped by 1,117. Inverness dropped by 509, etc, etc. Aberdeen and Dundee Utd experienced drops as well although not as dramatic with their larger overall attendances. For those I haven't checked I doubt very if Hibs got anything like 12,541 (their 2004/05 average attendance), or if Dunfermline would have got 6,192 even if they were still a top tier team, similarly would Livingston got 5,157? Don't think so. I think there is enough evidence to say that many clubs, particularly medium sized provincial clubs have seen attendances shrink by about 15 - 20% over the last ten years and that process is continuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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