lionel hutz Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Do FANS of Junior Teams want their club to join either the HL or LL? Would be interesting to see if they have the same view as their clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamamafegan Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Think you'll find that most Bo'ness United, Linlithgow Rose (HTG excepted) and Camelon fans have no huge urge for their club to be the next East Stirling or Stenhousemuir, because they think the east superleague provides a more interesting setup. It's a bit like Brora fans not being keen on being the next Elgin City and being happy staying where they are. A lot of it revolves around force of habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankies Alive Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I`m not against the idea but the the LL was set up at 2 weeks notice and was for EoSL AND SoSL "senior" teams who had nothing to lose as they were basically playing the same teams they`d always played. They`ve added 2 clubs from the West that once again had nothing to lose as they didnt exist and if it didnt work out then they hadnt lost anything. They were asking Junior Clubs to make a leap of faith to join a bolted on league where the odds of gaining a league place are heavily stacked against them and that their fans would have little interest in playing in. The whole thing was set up so that Spartans could get into the SPFL,it was a guy from Spartans that was put in charge of setting it up! Its not a pyramid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeSAFC Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The juniors will join the pyramid eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 OP's title is different from his question... There are thousands of clubs in the English pyramid - few of them desire to (or ever will) reach the Conference or FL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamamafegan Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Its not a pyramid. It is a pyramid. A very small one at that, but still a pyramid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Don't think you can sensibly call it a pyramid until there are multiple tiers of regionalisation covering the entire mainland of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Of course it's a pyramid - with reports of the EOS and SOS leagues agreeing to promotion/relegation between themselves and LL you've got 9 divisions in the system with over 100 clubs spread over 7 tiers. If the Juniors continue to hum-n-haw or ultimately decline to participate, that isn't the fault of the rest who are participating, and they're the pyramid. It doesn't have the look of a neatly structured pyramid yet, but that's because it's only just starting out, and because of the unique Scottish situation of the seperate grades - most obviously the Juniors - which add additional amounts of complexity. If the Juniors ultimately elect to participate (which I hope they do) then there are 2 tasks... assimilate the rump Senior leagues with them; and formalise the relationship between the bottom of the Juniors and the Amateurs, although this is already permeable as there are annual elections. If the Juniors ultimately reject it then there is 1 task... establish bridging leagues, or broaden the existing rump Seniors, with interested Juniors and Amateurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankies Alive Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 OP's title is different from his question... There are thousands of clubs in the English pyramid - few of them desire to (or ever will) reach the Conference or FL. The main problem for the Juniors is that the SFA want promotion to be MANDATORY which is not the case at the lower levels of English football. If they took that away then I`m sure the Juniors would have no problem in joining the pyramid. I don't know the reasoning behind making teams take a promotion that they neither want or can possibly afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 If Brora Rangers are getting away with holding a vote over whether they would want to compete in the playoff for promotion to the SPFL if they win the HL again next season (all in the guise of whether they would do a floodlight upgrade), the SFA won't be able to maintain that stance on mandatory promotion, if they are not enforcing it on the HL and LL clubs as they originally intended to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The pyramid system as it stands is seriously flawed, partly because the population of Scotland is not spread out "equally" over the landmass and partly because most of the the best non-league sides won't join. Promotion for the likes of Brora (wee village side backed by money....and we saw how that panned out for Gretna) is the equivalent of a lightweight boxer moving up to heavyweight. This is being forced on teams, the vast majority of whom really don't want it. The theory is fine, but the practicalities of it don''t stack up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The main problem for the Juniors is that the SFA want promotion to be MANDATORY which is not the case at the lower levels of English football. If they took that away then I`m sure the Juniors would have no problem in joining the pyramid. I don't know the reasoning behind making teams take a promotion that they neither want or can possibly afford. Spot on....but then it's not a pyramid if promotion is not mandatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Don't think so. Promotion not being mandatory is nothing out of the ordinary in countries (i.e. pretty much everybody except Scotland and the RoI now within UEFA) that have a fully functioning pyramid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Scotland are only just starting-out of the pyramid... and we have a number of extra "issues" which don't manifest themselves on the continent, most obviously the multiple grades co-existing at the same level, and in the same territorial areas. It don't think it would surprise many outside observers that this would mean things were messy or imbalanced to begin with, or that it required some policies which were not found in other mature systems (whether that be mandatory promotion, or only play-offs, or some clubs standing aloof from the system, or whatever) initially. And, personally, I think the Brora could actually illustrate why mandatory promotion might be required to begin with. They have a sugardaddy who funds a team far and away beyond the level required of HL football: they absolutely romped the HL last season and have been thrashing people left-right-n-centre so far this month. But he personally wants to win HL for 5yrs running. Doing so would not only turn the HL into a competitive nightmare - because in any normal system a club so dominant would move up - but it'd also deny the opportunity for ambitious clubs chugging-in behind to step-up themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Anybody got the details of where promotion becomes mandatory in england/other countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloop John B Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 It would be good if the juniors wanted to be in the pyramid as there would be all clubs under one banner as well as a lot of sporting intrigue but they think differently so it's right that we simply press on without them and increase the standard of football and facilities in the North, South and East of Scotland and hopefully show the rest that being part of the pyramid is the way forward. Then maybe a trickle of clubs may feel that the junior grade is stagnant and that they are being left behind by the rest of Scottish Football. With the pyramid it could eventually lead to some intriguing encounters in the future creating new rivalries and adding a bit of spice to the system, Gretna V Annan, Edinburgh City V Livingston, (EK) Clyde V East Kilbride etc... For every Elgin, there's a Ross County and even though Annan haven't went up they've certainly have had a enjoyable spell in the SPFL, beating Rangers and Morton, playing Hearts and QOS, featuring in two semi finals and playoff dramas and have a terrific ground for that level, they definitely wouldn't go back to where they were if they had the choice (They may end up there the way they are playing) and going to Elgin twice a year is worth it for the experience at this level. BTW I'm not Neil Doncaster before you get any ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionel hutz Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 It would be good if the juniors wanted to be in the pyramid as there would be all clubs under one banner as well as a lot of sporting intrigue but they think differently so it's right that we simply press on without them and increase the standard of football and facilities in the North, South and East of Scotland and hopefully show the rest that being part of the pyramid is the way forward. Then maybe a trickle of clubs may feel that the junior grade is stagnant and that they are being left behind by the rest of Scottish Football. With the pyramid it could eventually lead to some intriguing encounters in the future creating new rivalries and adding a bit of spice to the system, Gretna V Annan, Edinburgh City V Livingston, (EK) Clyde V East Kilbride etc... For every Elgin, there's a Ross County and even though Annan haven't went up they've certainly have had a enjoyable spell in the SPFL, beating Rangers and Morton, playing Hearts and QOS, featuring in two semi finals and playoff dramas and have a terrific ground for that level, they definitely wouldn't go back to where they were if they had the choice (They may end up there the way they are playing) and going to Elgin twice a year is worth it for the experience at this level. BTW I'm not Neil Doncaster before you get any ideas. Neil Doncaster probably doesn't know what Junior Football is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeSAFC Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 If the SFA managed to convince Talbot and Linlithgow to join the pyramid, I can guarantee the majority of junior clubs would follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalaKev Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Anybody got the details of where promotion becomes mandatory in england/other countries? Promotion is not mandatory at any level in England, except between divisions within the same league, where there may be league rules that they must take the step up. However as you are in that region already, the chances are you would take the promotion. In fact I don't think it mandatory, that you must take the step up from Football League to the Premier League, but I can never see that one being tested. From Conference down to the Regional First divisions, each level has ground criteria, it would be easy enough to stop promotion on default anyway. It could be something stupid like having 5 less car parking spaces, or having a seated stand which is 25 below the minimum, but deliberately doing it so no promotion. But once more I don't see that happening as you are already playing in very broad geographical areas anyway. But as precedent, I know that Hayes declined promotion from The Isthmian League to the Conference South in the past. So certainly from the Regional premiers to Conference Regional, promotion can be declined. The County Leagues, below the 3 Regional Leagues, and below is where it really changes. A lot of the time, rules state, if you meet the ground criteria, have ended up in a certain position in a feeder league, you can apply for membership of the higher league. More often than not it will be accepted, if you meet the criteria, but not always. There is also nothing stopping you moving sideways, like moving from the Wessex league to the combined counties league, if the league accepts you off course. Often the leagues are imbalanced and below capacity, so getting promoted or moving sideways is welcomed by the accepting league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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