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The flaw in the current /proposed set up does not lie with the Highland or Lowland leagues but with the two divisions above them.

Travelling' from Stranraer to say Peterhead midweek makes no logical sense with players being part time , travel costs and little following support.

These two leagues should also have been regionalised with the Lowland feeding into one and the Highland league the other' on a basis of one up one down in both leagues.

The benefits are less travel , more 'derby' matches with improved crowds. Increased gate money etc then gets ploughed back into the club to make it sustainable.Too many clubs are living a hand to mouth existence , it is surely only a matter of time before some go under .

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We're well beyond "should have" to be honest. And there is no point trying to influence the Stranraer to Peterhead thing. These clubs want to be in a national league structure. They don't want someone else telling them what is good for them or right for them. None have failed through lack of resource at the bottom end of the national structure. All the big failures have been among bigger clubs whom you would reasonably expect to be in a national league. And none failed because they had too far to travel. There are far bigger issues to resolve in the SPFL than the odd midweek trek to somewhere horrible.

I pretty much agree with LTL. Wouldn't be surprised if a delay is sought. I've no issue with it kicking in from the start of next season though. The clubs have done what was asked of them albeit there is much still to do.

Where are the relegated HFL teams going?

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The flaw in the current /proposed set up does not lie with the Highland or Lowland leagues but with the two divisions above them.

Travelling' from Stranraer to say Peterhead midweek makes no logical sense with players being part time , travel costs and little following support.

These two leagues should also have been regionalised with the Lowland feeding into one and the Highland league the other' on a basis of one up one down in both leagues.

The benefits are less travel , more 'derby' matches with improved crowds. Increased gate money etc then gets ploughed back into the club to make it sustainable.Too many clubs are living a hand to mouth existence , it is surely only a matter of time before some go under .

These leagues have been national since anyone can remember. Fans don't want regionalised lower leagues. The extreme distances you mention are rare. Since most clubs come from the central belt, traveling distances wouldn't dramatically decrease for a lot of clubs. Take East Fife, if we were in the North section, we'd still have to go to Peterhead and Elgin, if we were in the South, we'd still have to travel to Annan and Stranraer.

When you factor in the inevitable loss of prestige associated with regionalising, would a relatively small amount of petrol money make up for bringing in something fans simply don't want? As for derbies, that's arguable. Take Arbroath and Montrose, if they'd been playing each other 4 times a season for 15 years, I think derbies would lose a lot of what makes them special.

Here's a revolutionary idea - if we want football to thrive financially in this country, why not stop continually making decision that the people who keep the game afloat don't want?

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These leagues have been national since anyone can remember. Fans don't want regionalised lower leagues. The extreme distances you mention are rare. Since most clubs come from the central belt, traveling distances wouldn't dramatically decrease for a lot of clubs. Take East Fife, if we were in the North section, we'd still have to go to Peterhead and Elgin, if we were in the South, we'd still have to travel to Annan and Stranraer.

When you factor in the inevitable loss of prestige associated with regionalising, would a relatively small amount of petrol money make up for bringing in something fans simply don't want? As for derbies, that's arguable. Take Arbroath and Montrose, if they'd been playing each other 4 times a season for 15 years, I think derbies would lose a lot of what makes them special.

Here's a revolutionary idea - if we want football to thrive financially in this country, why not stop continually making decision that the people who keep the game afloat don't want?

Agree with this - i have no issue if we get relegated to a regional set-up like the Lowland League, but would hate it if League One or League Two were changed to regional. The only people who repeatedly tout this are fans of clubs outwith these two leagues.

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These leagues have been national since anyone can remember. Fans don't want regionalised lower leagues. The extreme distances you mention are rare. Since most clubs come from the central belt, traveling distances wouldn't dramatically decrease for a lot of clubs. Take East Fife, if we were in the North section, we'd still have to go to Peterhead and Elgin, if we were in the South, we'd still have to travel to Annan and Stranraer.

When you factor in the inevitable loss of prestige associated with regionalising, would a relatively small amount of petrol money make up for bringing in something fans simply don't want? As for derbies, that's arguable. Take Arbroath and Montrose, if they'd been playing each other 4 times a season for 15 years, I think derbies would lose a lot of what makes them special.

Here's a revolutionary idea - if we want football to thrive financially in this country, why not stop continually making decision that the people who keep the game afloat don't want?

Is it all about the prestige?

What is intrinsically wrong with Scottish football is the "it's always been" mentality. If you had a blank sheet of paper, you would not set-up a league system where Annan and Elgin are in the same division at the 4th tier, who are part-time, and play in front of a few hundred fans. It makes no logical sense.

However, there's little point debating the issue as we'll all carry on as before due to self interest and perceived "loss of prestige", and the game will continue to stagnate.

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Agree with this - i have no issue if we get relegated to a regional set-up like the Lowland League, but would hate it if League One or League Two were changed to regional.

Is having your result read out on the telly really that important? Take Rangers out of the equation and there is pretty much zero national level interest in what happens in the lower divisions of the SPFL. Only people living locally are paying any attention to stuff like who the new manager is or who just got signed to play up front next season, as is also the case with top junior or nonleague senior clubs. The reason clubs aren't exactly falling over themselves to get into the SPFL is that people outside the goldfish bowl can see that, compare it to what they have and don't see the attraction.

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Tbf, I think it's seen as a prestige thing in terms of attracting sponsorship and hospitality, and so forth, as well as just a warm fuzzy feeling. Also because it gives that USP of "we're playing in serious nationwide football". I can see why SPFL clubs are not wanting to regionalise - and for now that's fair enough in my eyes. Maybe in time. There's also the not inconsiderable factors of League Cup participation, pools money, and SPFL-wide revenue distribution.

I'm sure it's also a factor in why Juniors seem 'disinterested' in the pyramid, but I don't think it's the only one or even the main one.

Plus the question of how you would go about effecting some kind of regionalisation. You could do a big rehash of SPFL2, Highland, Lowland in its ultimate form, and a handful of other clubs into 3 regional leagues. But in Scottish football things seldom move so radically. Much more likely: a straight conversion of SPFL1 & SPFL2 into SPFL North-East & SPFL South-West. And clearly your elite part-timers don't want that, and quite rightly so. Most probably the ideal set-up for our national leagues would be ~32 clubs in 3 divisions, so 22 clubs in 2 divisions would be too extreme.

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Is it all about the prestige?

What is intrinsically wrong with Scottish football is the "it's always been" mentality. If you had a blank sheet of paper, you would not set-up a league system where Annan and Elgin are in the same division at the 4th tier, who are part-time, and play in front of a few hundred fans. It makes no logical sense.

However, there's little point debating the issue as we'll all carry on as before due to self interest and perceived "loss of prestige", and the game will continue to stagnate.

.No, it's not all about prestige. But if we're arguing for regionalisation based on hard nosed economics, don't you think a loss of income would naturally follow on from a loss of 'prestige' for want of a better word, in the lower leagues?

If I had a blank piece of paper, I certainly wouldn't have 12,10,10,10 as the league structure. But we're not starting from a blank piece of papaer anyway.

I've yet to hear a good argument for regionalising the lower leagues. Until I do, I'll oppose it like 99% of fans from lower league teams.

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Tbf, I think it's seen as a prestige thing in terms of attracting sponsorship and hospitality, and so forth, as well as just a warm fuzzy feeling. Also because it gives that USP of "we're playing in serious nationwide football". I can see why SPFL clubs are not wanting to regionalise - and for now that's fair enough in my eyes. Maybe in time. There's also the not inconsiderable factors of League Cup participation, pools money, and SPFL-wide revenue distribution.

I'm sure it's also a factor in why Juniors seem 'disinterested' in the pyramid, but I don't think it's the only one or even the main one.

Plus the question of how you would go about effecting some kind of regionalisation. You could do a big rehash of SPFL2, Highland, Lowland in its ultimate form, and a handful of other clubs into 3 regional leagues. But in Scottish football things seldom move so radically. Much more likely: a straight conversion of SPFL1 & SPFL2 into SPFL North-East & SPFL South-West. And clearly your elite part-timers don't want that, and quite rightly so. Most probably the ideal set-up for our national leagues would be ~32 clubs in 3 divisions, so 22 clubs in 2 divisions would be too extreme.

I'd be much more open to a regional structure which still allowed for the current L1 clubs to stay in the national structure. The whole 'regionalise' L1 and L2 just smacks of clubs who get 1000 punters through the gates thinking that they can squeeze a few more quid in if only clubs who get 600 punters through the gates would get punted into a regional league.

Even a 12-12-12 with regionalised legues below would be OK with me.

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.No, it's not all about prestige. But if we're arguing for regionalisation based on hard nosed economics, don't you think a loss of income would naturally follow on from a loss of 'prestige' for want of a better word, in the lower leagues?

If I had a blank piece of paper, I certainly wouldn't have 12,10,10,10 as the league structure. But we're not starting from a blank piece of papaer anyway.

I've yet to hear a good argument for regionalising the lower leagues. Until I do, I'll oppose it like 99% of fans from lower league teams.

I was at Albion Rovers v Elgin City earlier this season. It was a Saturday, and there were 10/12 Elgin fans there, some of whom may actually have been club people and therefore not paying fans. Who exactly benefited from that game? certainly not Elgin fans hardly any of whom travelled, and not Rovers as they would have hardly made any income from those visiting fans. Last season I was at Stirling Albion v Peterhead, again on a Saturday and again very few Peterhead fans.

I am merely pointing out that any sane person would not set-up the same league structure that we have now starting from scratch, and surely it is in the best interests of the game as a whole that we perhaps plan where we ideally want to be and then take steps to get there? We have the same amount of clubs playing nationally as Spain!

Personally speaking, 32 clubs playing nationally would be more than enough, with the rest regionalised with all remaining non-league clubs. That, sadly, is a utopia that is very unlikely to happen (just look at the current mess of the non-league scene), so we're stuck with part-time clubs traveling 200+ miles to play a league game in front of 400 fans. It's insane, you don't need a "good argument", it's obvious!

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I was at Albion Rovers v Elgin City earlier this season. It was a Saturday, and there were 10/12 Elgin fans there, some of whom may actually have been club people and therefore not paying fans. Who exactly benefited from that game? certainly not Elgin fans hardly any of whom travelled, and not Rovers as they would have hardly made any income from those visiting fans. Last season I was at Stirling Albion v Peterhead, again on a Saturday and again very few Peterhead fans.

I am merely pointing out that any sane person would not set-up the same league structure that we have now starting from scratch, and surely it is in the best interests of the game as a whole that we perhaps plan where we ideally want to be and then take steps to get there? We have the same amount of clubs playing nationally as Spain!

Personally speaking, 32 clubs playing nationally would be more than enough, with the rest regionalised with all remaining non-league clubs. That, sadly, is a utopia that is very unlikely to happen (just look at the current mess of the non-league scene), so we're stuck with part-time clubs traveling 200+ miles to play a league game in front of 400 fans. It's insane, you don't need a "good argument", it's obvious!

I was at Albion Rovers v Elgin City earlier this season. It was a Saturday, and there were 10/12 Elgin fans there, some of whom may actually have been club people and therefore not paying fans. Who exactly benefited from that game? certainly not Elgin fans hardly any of whom travelled, and not Rovers as they would have hardly made any income from those visiting fans. Last season I was at Stirling Albion v Peterhead, again on a Saturday and again very few Peterhead fans.

I am merely pointing out that any sane person would not set-up the same league structure that we have now starting from scratch, and surely it is in the best interests of the game as a whole that we perhaps plan where we ideally want to be and then take steps to get there? We have the same amount of clubs playing nationally as Spain!

Personally speaking, 32 clubs playing nationally would be more than enough, with the rest regionalised with all remaining non-league clubs. That, sadly, is a utopia that is very unlikely to happen (just look at the current mess of the non-league scene), so we're stuck with part-time clubs traveling 200+ miles to play a league game in front of 400 fans. It's insane, you don't need a "good argument", it's obvious!

Burnie,

It's only the odd game that will be such a journey, it's a swings an roundabouts scenario, there'll be plenty of money making fixtures with the odd special away day (mid-week or even a Saturday), it's up to the likes of us regulars to get more folk on board, we've got a terrific product but it's just that loads of folk around aren't making the effort to go out & support their local teams. We at Spartans take long away days as a trip out, the lads on the pitch love us being there to cheer them on.

Grimbo

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Burnie,

It's only the odd game that will be such a journey, it's a swings an roundabouts scenario, there'll be plenty of money making fixtures with the odd special away day (mid-week or even a Saturday), it's up to the likes of us regulars to get more folk on board, we've got a terrific product but it's just that loads of folk around aren't making the effort to go out & support their local teams. We at Spartans take long away days as a trip out, the lads on the pitch love us being there to cheer them on.

Grimbo

Well in my recent experiences as exampled above, very few away fans made the effort at that level, and Elgin and Peterhead are decent sized clubs with long histories. Maybe an Elgin fan who goes to home games most weeks takes the opportunity to do something else or go and watch a Highland League match rather than spend hours travelling to and from Coatbridge. He'd be more likely to go to eg. Buckie in a regional third division I'd expect. The novelty of national football looks to have long since worn off.

Why do these clubs continually play in front of small crowds? this season Stirling Albion averaged 609 in SFL3, that was the highest in the division! It's been like that for years and years. Would playing regionally against more local teams with the best in the non-league clubs added into the mix improve things? I think so.

However as I said, it'll never happen so we're probably wasting our time!

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Well in my recent experiences as exampled above, very few away fans made the effort at that level, and Elgin and Peterhead are decent sized clubs with long histories. Maybe an Elgin fan who goes to home games most weeks takes the opportunity to do something else or go and watch a Highland League match rather than spend hours travelling to and from Coatbridge. He'd be more likely to go to eg. Buckie in a regional third division I'd expect. The novelty of national football looks to have long since worn off.

Why do these clubs continually play in front of small crowds? this season Stirling Albion averaged 609 in SFL3, that was the highest in the division! It's been like that for years and years. Would playing regionally against more local teams with the best in the non-league clubs added into the mix improve things? I think so.

However as I said, it'll never happen so we're probably wasting our time!

Because there's no competitive element, this is exactly why the Pyramid is a must. Scottish football as stagnated up to now. The Pyramid still needs working on BUT we've finally got it, it's up to us all to make the most of it. For me as a Spartans fan it means that we now can get up the Leagues on merit & not on the death of another team. We all have our opinions on to how to improve it but we have to take it at face value & that's what EVERY team in the Lowland League are doing!

Grimbo

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Well in my recent experiences as exampled above, very few away fans made the effort at that level, and Elgin and Peterhead are decent sized clubs with long histories. Maybe an Elgin fan who goes to home games most weeks takes the opportunity to do something else or go and watch a Highland League match rather than spend hours travelling to and from Coatbridge. He'd be more likely to go to eg. Buckie in a regional third division I'd expect. The novelty of national football looks to have long since worn off.

Why do these clubs continually play in front of small crowds? this season Stirling Albion averaged 609 in SFL3, that was the highest in the division! It's been like that for years and years. Would playing regionally against more local teams with the best in the non-league clubs added into the mix improve things? I think so.

However as I said, it'll never happen so we're probably wasting our time!

I'm with you on this one and understand both parts of the argument. I also know that a blank piece of paper would never be used to draw up what we currently have BUT we don't have a blank sheet, we are where we are. However, what is the purpose of football in Scotland? The sfa will have a mission statement- if they don't, they should and ultimately it should be that drives what happens in Scottish football, not people holding on to 140 years of history to play in front of 300 fans. What is best for the good of the game? Can't believe it's the current set up.

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Because there's no competitive element, this is exactly why the Pyramid is a must. Scottish football as stagnated up to now. The Pyramid still needs working on BUT we've finally got it, it's up to us all to make the most of it. For me as a Spartans fan it means that we now can get up the Leagues on merit & not on the death of another team. We all have our opinions on to how to improve it but we have to take it at face value & that's what EVERY team in the Lowland League are doing!

Grimbo

Pyramid is a must, I just wish we had one, but let's not go there!

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I don't think regionalising SPFL1 and SPFL2 would lead to any meaningful increase in crowds... You might get an extra derby here or there, but that would be about it. Away fans wouldn't increase much for 2 regional leagues. Infact - when this topic is discussed on the SPFL lower league sub-forums, some will confidently say their preferred aways are the "all-dayers", the long trips. I know Berwick sometimes take more (but still not many!) to them.

On the "blank paper" v "what we have" thing... ultimately, the task is to gradually evolve things: from history's hand-me-down, closer to the ideal.

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I don't think regionalising SPFL1 and SPFL2 would lead to any meaningful increase in crowds... You might get an extra derby here or there, but that would be about it. Away fans wouldn't increase much for 2 regional leagues. Infact - when this topic is discussed on the SPFL lower league sub-forums, some will confidently say their preferred aways are the "all-dayers", the long trips. I know Berwick sometimes take more (but still not many!) to them.

On the "blank paper" v "what we have" thing... ultimately, the task is to gradually evolve things: from history's hand-me-down, closer to the ideal.

You'd need to define "the ideal". Even with a blank piece of paper you couldn't define and agree on my ideal, your ideal, Gordon from East Fife's ideal. There are any number of "ideals"

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This all reminds me of the old saying that the camel was designed by a committee.

The Pyramid (despite what Burnie thinks) is here. Unlike the camel the Pyramid's humps & imperfections will be ironed out over time.

Grimbo

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This all reminds me of the old saying that the camel was designed by a committee.

The Pyramid (despite what Burnie thinks) is here. Unlike the camel the Pyramid's humps & imperfections will be ironed out over time.

Grimbo

Sadly, I don't think you or me will ever see it Grim.

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