[Pars fan]

If Rangers and Celtic both left the Scottish leagues, how would we do on our own? I recon we would eventually have a stronger league and in turn a better national team. Granted this would take a good few years but i think it would be good. The old firm would most likely compete in the EPL eventually and the teams left in our league would in turn become stronger. Do you recon this will ever happen or just a Peter Pan number?

[Andrew283]

We would die a death and most of the 42 senior teams will likely go into admin or liquidation within 10 seasons

[Poet of the Macabre]

If managed correctly it would be superb within a few years.

Since I know who would be running the game though, it would likely be a disaster. Not unlike the current set-up mind you.

[Hearts Daft]

If the SFA paid off all debt then yes

That's about as likely as me getting picked to play Celtic on wednesday though

Teams with huge debt like Hearts Aberdeen Dunfermline etc would go tits up leading to less and less revenue for the teams left

If they went down the vast majority would be dragged down with them

[Rabinho]

We'll find out soon enough how we'll manage without one of them.

[Ric]

There is absolutely no doubt we would survive, after all there are professional footballing leagues all over the world "surviving" without the Old Firm being part of them.

For the OF to suggest that we would be nothing without them is reminiscent of the arguments put down by an abusive partner when their wife talks about leaving them; nobody will want you, nobody is interested, you are the best you'll ever get, you are nothing without me, etc, etc... In fact seeing it written down shows how close the analogy really is.


As for the OP question, would we thrive? I think the answer is no, because currently with the OF we are no thriving and in the current financial climate I can see that improving for at least another 3-5 years at the best, and that's even if it does improve.

[HPC]

Just out of interest, where would they go? The English Leagues don't want them.

Apart from one Premier League Chairman who might be getting egg on face a la Lex Gold this season.

[Kitty_Boy]

Pars fan, on 06 February 2012 - 04:02, said:

If Rangers and Celtic both left the Scottish leagues, how would we do on our own? I recon we would eventually have a stronger league and in turn a better national team. Granted this would take a good few years but i think it would be good. The old firm would most likely compete in the EPL eventually and the teams left in our league would in turn become stronger. Do you recon this will ever happen or just a Peter Pan number?

The SPL would be like the League of Ireland.

I have no idea what this means but apparently its not good.

[Ric]

Kitty_Boy, on 06 February 2012 - 09:26, said:

The SPL would be like the League of Ireland.

This does seem to be the lined trotted out. Of course no matter how much evidence to the contrary the more people say it the more they believe it.

[Thundermonkey]

We would be just fine. Cloth would be cut but it needs to be cut. We have our best team for years in terms of fight and entertainment and it's completely down to the manager having his hands tied financially. We have beaten 2 of the big boys and put up a great show against the champions.

Get the OF out and get a 16 team league. What money is left in the game will vanish for a few years but it will force clubs to play their youngsters. In turn, the corwds will come back, especially if your team is challenging in a genuine competitive league. We are all tired of the same pish every year. The same old fucks swapping SPL clubs every summer. It's the same old fixtures with the same old players.

As shite right now as I can every remember. I prefer watching the Championship on a Saturday night and that's got to be wrong.

[Argyll Hibs]

Winning the SPL without the OF would feel a bit empty in my opinion as your essentially just finishing 3rd. If Hibs were ever challenging for the league I would want them to be here so the Hibs fans actually know we're one of the best teams in the country and not just because the big boys have been chucked.

[deky]

Scottish football would be fie without the old firm.

Do people still believe the pish they read in the media, people with such vested interest are not the people to listen to.

What do fans want?

[TheGreenMonster]

Even if Celtic and Rangers ever left to play somewhere else, which is never going to happen, I would fully expect them to leave a B or Colts team playing in the Scottish leagues so even if they go somewhere they won't go anywhere.

[Colin M]

TheGreenMonster, on 06 February 2012 - 11:53, said:

Even if Celtic and Rangers ever left to play somewhere else, which is never going to happen, I would fully expect them to leave a B or Colts team playing in the Scottish leagues so even if they go somewhere they won't go anywhere.

If it was as simple as they go off to join the English setup, I don't think that would happen.

[deky]

TheGreenMonster, on 06 February 2012 - 11:53, said:

Even if Celtic and Rangers ever left to play somewhere else, which is never going to happen, I would fully expect them to leave a B or Colts team playing in the Scottish leagues so even if they go somewhere they won't go anywhere.

Why don't teams with the global appeal of the old firm have teams in every league?

I'm sure the Italian, Greek and Honduran leagues would benefit from this.

After all, we're constantly told how much the old firm bring to the Scottish game, don't be so selfish and parochial, spread the glorious old firm brand arouind the globe.

[___]

Teams which would have won the league without the Old Firm

1998/99 St Johnstone
1999/00 Hearts
2000/01 Hibernian
2001/02 Livingston
2002/03 Hearts
2003/04 Hearts
2004/05 Hibernian
2005/06 Hearts
2006/07 Aberdeen
2007/08 Motherwell
2008/09 Hearts
2009/10 Dundee United
2010/11 Hearts

Thats 7 different clubs that would have won the league out of 13 seasons. Alot better than 2

[EdTheDuck]

___, on 06 February 2012 - 12:03, said:

Teams which would have won the league without the Old Firm

1998/99 St Johnstone
1999/00 Hearts
2000/01 Hibernian
2001/02 Livingston
2002/03 Hearts
2003/04 Hearts
2004/05 Hibernian
2005/06 Hearts
2006/07 Aberdeen
2007/08 Motherwell
2008/09 Hearts
2009/10 Dundee United
2010/11 Hearts

Thats 7 different clubs that would have won the league out of 13 seasons. Alot better than 2

I hate to strip St Johnstone of their first ever title, but in fact with the OF results expunged, Kilmarnock would have won the 98/99 championship

[DomDom]

Lets not forget that with the Old Firm gone, there's a chance that Hearts and Hibs could well take over those slots. Sky Sports are pretty interested in the Edinburgh derby, so there's obviously interest in both sides.

[Colin M]

DomDom, on 06 February 2012 - 12:20, said:

Lets not forget that with the Old Firm gone, there's a chance that Hearts and Hibs could well take over those slots. Sky Sports are pretty interested in the Edinburgh derby, so there's obviously interest in both sides.

I would assume that the TV/Prize money split would be reviewed so that those clubs did not take the lion's share and distribution was more even - it would certainly be the case that 2 or 3 clubs would naturally become the biggest and most likely more dominant, but I don't think there would be any kind of duopoly like there is now. The difference in "natural" size of the Old Firm and the rest is astronomical, not so where Hearts and Hibs are concerned.

[HibeeJibee]

Scottish football would survive, but I doubt it would thrive.

Such losses in TV and sponsorship cash as would occur could probably send the most heavily indebted clubs to the wall, and those which survived would be operating on much-reduced income. One wonders if Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen wouldn't approach being as dominant as OF were, with their bigger gates and incomes.

If OF went down South, one suspects the Edinburgh sides, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, etc., would eye-up that move sooner-or-later too.

People also seem to think that OF "moving" = OF disappearing.

It doesn't. They're still playing in Glasgow each week, but in EPL they'd dominate media coverage even more as "our big teams in the big league".

One can draw parallels with the situation in Wales.


That said... there's no chance of OF joining EPL; Celtic aren't going bust; and regardless of ongoing financial machinations Rangers will survive, fairly strongly, in some form.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 06 February 2012 - 12:44

[geo1234]

If everyone in Scotland wants the OF to die I think every team that plays them at Ibrox should boycott going therefore they will fall deaper into the doldrems, We would survive without them maybe less tv money but crowds would come back to see there team atleast having a chance of winning the league

[the-gaffer606]

I think sme people just don't understand, without Celtic and Rangers the game would be dried up of any cash it currently has, any players you might consider top players like Sandaza or even a John Sutton would be out of reach, there wouldn't be enough cash coming in to the Scottish game o spend on these guys wages.
It's also unrealistic to believe that crowds would suddenly come back, some would but you'll be hard pushed to think fans wll suddenly pay through he nose t watch kids or dud players, that's l te league clubs minus Celtic and Rangers could afford or even attract, in order to get more people to games we need to reduce prices and most clubs owe to much money to even entertain that idea, that's with the Old Firm, without would see a even less likely possibility
I'd like to see six countries enter into a Atlantic League, Scotland, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden and Norway
I'd have the top three clubs from these countries top division enter into the Atlantic League, I'd then have the top divisions in each country used as regional leagues, with the winners of each of the six divisions every ingle year take the place of their countries third best team in the Atlantic League so the Atlantic League would have six promotion/relegation places every year
Then the 2nd and 3rd best teams from each of those six countries top leagues would enter into a European style knockout tournament and to make up the other four places the sixth fourth placed teams would enter a draw, two would gain a buy and the other four teams would play preliminary game
This would allow six/seven teams a season from Scotland to have some form of European football and would make the SPL more entertaining without the thought of taking the Old Firm out of the Scottish game altogether.
I'd also leave all clubs in the Atlantic League free to play in their native F.A Cup

This post has been edited by the-gaffer606: 06 February 2012 - 15:05

[Green&White Zebra]

Regardless of who stays or goes, the game can and will thrive if the clubs adhere to some simple guidelines for running themselves. Living within their means, having productive youth policies and there being a general consensus on playing the game on the deck and not being obsessively results driven. Indeed, there are even encouraging signs that some clubs are beginning to do that now.

Clubs in debt can and should pay the price, even if it's the ultimate one. In the long term, demographics will ensure that any void is filled. For example, if we lose Kilmarnock, then a new version of it will spring up. The example extends to others.

But a simple convenient move of Celtic and/or Rangers out of the Scottish game is not going to happen without a significant cultural change in club football as a whole. As a matter of fact, I think one day that at least one Scottish club will compete in some form of international league, but in what format is hard to tell. But the catalyst for that kind of change will not be any broadcaster, but rather a significant growth in intercontinental football at club level and the end of Europe's hegemony. It will be a cultural change in the way club football is viewed and organised, and ultimately, any Scottish club that moves out will be no more than a footnote in history.

[HanoMaSano]

Just in case anyone was wondering the relative sizes of our clubs are in comparison the clubs in the leagues "we'd end up like" without the old firm.

I do wonder what the Approx 60-70,000 fans of diddy teams will do with themselves of a weekend since they'll no longer have an interest in going to the football. I'm sure shopping with the wife will become a much loved pastime on a Saturday, much better than supporting a team in a League without Rangers and Celtic.

Really, it's a shame that they'll miss their team winning the SPL.


|_League_______________|_Avg Att__|
|_SPL__________________|__13,670__|
|_SPL (Minus OF)_______|___6,333__|
|_SFL1_________________|___2,516__|
|_League Of Ireland____|___1,613__|
|_IFA Premiership (NI)_|_____923__|
|_SFL2_________________|_____702__|
|_SFL3_________________|_____395__|
|_Welsh Premier League_|_____339__|

This post has been edited by HanoMaSano: 06 February 2012 - 17:06

[1001001]

HanoMaSano, on 06 February 2012 - 17:05, said:

Just in case anyone was wondering the relative sizes of our clubs are in comparison the clubs in the leagues "we'd end up like" without the old firm.

I do wonder what the Approx 60-70,000 fans of diddy teams will do with themselves of a weekend since they'll no longer have an interest in going to the football. I'm sure shopping with the wife will become a much loved pastime on a Saturday, much better than supporting a team in a League without Rangers and Celtic.

Really, it's a shame that they'll miss their team winning the SPL.


|_League_______________|_Avg Att__|
|_SPL__________________|__13,670__|
|_SPL (Minus OF)_______|___6,333__|
|_SFL1_________________|___2,516__|
|_League Of Ireland____|___1,613__|
|_IFA Premiership (NI)_|_____923__|
|_SFL2_________________|_____702__|
|_SFL3_________________|_____395__|
|_Welsh Premier League_|_____339__|

Supporters WILL go to see a winning team. I would be interested to hear from any Hibs and Utd fans about how many showed up when both were closing in on their re-election to the top flight after a single year in the 1st? I seem to remember the attendances were pretty good. Now, imagine a tight league without the OF - is anyone going to suggest, say a title decider between any of Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen Dundee Utd, Killie etc wouldn't pull in a full house? Money would go down from TV for sure but by how much really? What do the 'rest' actually get after the OF slice is taken, not to mention the lack of interest in the rest from the media? The above table is a mockery - it just proves that interest in football in Scotland is way ahead of Wales or Ireland. Give me an OF free SPL any day.