[1896]

These three clubs are always in the Scottish Cup, because they are Full Member and I was wondering how this three clubs got this status? Did they play in one of the bigger leagues in the past?

[cmontheloknow]

1896, on 05 February 2012 - 10:13, said:

These three clubs are always in the Scottish Cup, because they are Full Member and I was wondering how this three clubs got this status? Did they play in one of the bigger leagues in the past?

In the past being an SFA Full Member was not difficult to achieve, and there used to be a few hundred entries to the qualifying rounds of the Scottish Cup.

Gradually, these many clubs drifted away. Some joined the Scottish League, many folded, others went Junior or Amateur.

As time went on, the requirements for Full Membership changed, and when teams forgot to renew their membership, they ended up losing it. Aberdeen University and Creetown are two examples of that I think.

[HibeeJibee]

As Cmontheloknow says, there used to be a couple of hundred clubs eligible for the cup - in the days when the criteria was little more than secure tenure or ownership of an adequately-sized park, the use of a pavilion, and a rope to put around the field.

Burntisland Shipyard were formed after WWI, in 1919, and were members of the Junior FA. They joined SFA in 1929. They've always played in Amateur leagues except 1931-34 when they participated in the Edinburgh & District League, a shortlived breakaway rival of the EOS League.

Glasgow University were formed in 1877 and joined SFA the following year, although between the 1880s and WWI they had 3 occasions when they dropped-out. They've always played in Amateur and University competitions, except 1966-72 when they also participated in the (Senior) Combined Reserve League.

Golspie Sutherland were formed in 1924 but only joined SFA in 1963. They also missed 2 Scottish Qualifying Cup (North) seasons in the 1980s, although perhaps they'd just scratched as opposed to rescinding their membership, as I doubt their ground was good enough by then to get admission. They've always played in the North Caledonian League, IIRC, which is a rather odd 'quasi-Senior'... in that it's an SFA member, albeit without any voting or representative rights, through historical association with HFL.

Essentially, they're 3 final 'oddities' of a dying breed.

[HibeeJibee]

Another slight oddity is of course Girvan... formed 1944 joined SFA for 1946-47 then 1953 onward. Played in SOS League from 1950-1962 then 1975-2005, at which time they joined Juniors, but retain their Full Membership = annual qualification.

[cmontheloknow]

Aye Golspie, looking at at, sat out 83-84. Never noticed that before.

[Dumfriess]

cmontheloknow, on 05 February 2012 - 15:48, said:

Aye Golspie, looking at at, sat out 83-84. Never noticed that before.

I also remember reading about Eyemouth United, Peebles Rovers and Duns playing in the Scottish Cup.

However I'm not sure if Kelso or Melrose have ever been represented in the cup?

This post has been edited by Dumfriess: 05 February 2012 - 17:29

[HibeeJibee]

Those Border towns all has Scottish Cup representation 'til the 1960s-70s, yes.

Peebles went Junior... back then that either meant you couldn't, or by common acceptance didn't, continue your SFA membership... and when they came back to Senior football later they no longer met the ground criteria. Duns were evicted from their ground in 1974 (ultimately cost them their EOS place too). Not sure exactly what happened at Eyemouth.

Kelso had representation in the Scottish Cup, in the 1890s.

There's never been a lasting football club in Melrose, not even at Border Amateur level.

[1896]

Thanks, that's clear now.

[Hampden Diehard]

I was under the impression that one of the criteria a while ago was that a team also had to have an enclosed ground. That was why some of the EoS and SoS League sides don't appear in the Cup.

Glasgow Univ used to play at Westerlands (off Gt Western Road at Anniesland) which was enclosed and they certainly hosted the Dirty Rovers there in the 1970s. Not sure that their present ground would fit the bill though if anyone decided to force the issue.

I'm fairly sure that both Golspie's and Burntisland's grounds are enclosed.

This post has been edited by Hampden Diehard: 07 February 2012 - 21:44

[cmontheloknow]

Hampden Diehard, on 07 February 2012 - 21:39, said:

I was under the impression that one of the criteria a while ago was that a team also had to have an enclosed ground. That was why some of the EoS and SoS League sides don't appear in the Cup.

Glasgow Univ used to play at Westerlands (off Gt Western Road at Anniesland) which was enclosed and they certainly hosted the Dirty Rovers there in the 1970s. Not sure that their present ground would fit the bill though if anyone decided to force the issue.

I'm fairly sure that both Golspie's and Burntisland's grounds are enclosed.

The criteria for new members of the SFA was (and remains) an enclosed ground, but it was not part of the criteria for existing members and has never been applied to them. When it comes to the Scottish Cup, the only stipulation re: ground was a roped off pitch and changing rooms nearby. Had Peebles Rovers etc kept up their membership, they'd still be in. It's all about to change though.

The bulk of the EoS and SoS sides that don't appear in the cup are no more Full Members of the SFA than Pollok or Linlithgow and are excluded from automatic entry on the same basis. The only difference between say Lothian Thistle and Pollok is that they play in a league affiliated to the SFA, whereas Lok play in an affiliated association. And even more so now with both set-ups on the plywood Non Professional board.

Something thickos like McKeown forget when lambasting the Juniors for entering the cup is that senior non-league sides (if that even exists anymore) can qualify by winning their league, as Crichton did a few years back.

On unenclosed parks, of the current SFA membership, you have Newton Stewart, Civil Service Strollers and Coldstream. Wigtown's park is free to wander into also though I suppose is basically enclosed. Glasgow Uni I've not been to but I'm sure I read someone comment on the Girvan tie and say it was unenclosed.

[scrooge1928]

Civil Service Strollers' ground isn't a public park. It's a private sports ground, completely surrounded by a high wire fence with only two entrance points, and it's quite easy to keep secure for Scottish Cup games.

Coldstream is a public park. There are three entrances – one at the top beside the pavilion, two on the High Street. The entrance beside the car park has low walls, but a few strategic fences and a couple of security guys are enough to temporarily make it enclosed.

Burntisland Shipyard's ground is fully enclosed.

Eyemouth United played Scottish Cup ties on their ground at the High School until the 1960s. Late in that decade the Education Authority forced them out – if I remember correctly, they wanted to lay out rugby pitches – and they played outside the town (Chirnside?) until the council gave them a lease of Gunsgreen (now Warner) Park.

[cmontheloknow]

scrooge1928, on 07 February 2012 - 23:05, said:

Civil Service Strollers' ground isn't a public park. It's a private sports ground, completely surrounded by a high wire fence with only two entrance points, and it's quite easy to keep secure for Scottish Cup games.

Coldstream is a public park. There are three entrances – one at the top beside the pavilion, two on the High Street. The entrance beside the car park has low walls, but a few strategic fences and a couple of security guys are enough to temporarily make it enclosed.

Burntisland Shipyard's ground is fully enclosed.

Eyemouth United played Scottish Cup ties on their ground at the High School until the 1960s. Late in that decade the Education Authority forced them out – if I remember correctly, they wanted to lay out rugby pitches – and they played outside the town (Chirnside?) until the council gave them a lease of Gunsgreen (now Warner) Park.

The Civil Service ground or whatever they call it nowadays might be private but it's a huge playing field and as such surely cannot be considered enclosed under the intended definition? The sooner Club Licensing gets shot of them the better, they wouldn't even get into the SJFA these days with such a facility.

I remember a few years back going to Nithsdale and being told they were unable to charge admission under D&G restrictions as their park was public property - I assume Borders Council have a different set of rules if Coldstream can block access for a cup tie?

I've heard the same story for Newton Stewart - that they can block access - but I'm sure if I said I wanted to take my nephew to the see-saw behind the pavilion they'd be fairly powerless to stop me!

[HibeeJibee]

Club Licensing requires the following for enclosure:

Quote

The following specific requirements apply where a club does not have a Safety Certificate


PA System: A public address system must be provided which is clearly audible in all areas of the ground which can be occupied by spectators.

Signage: The ground must have clear signage to aid the general public. All exit gates and doors should be clearly identified.

Boundary Wall: The boundary wall and/or fence must be of sound solid construction, secure on all sides and designed to obscure viewing from outside the ground. It must be located within the immediate environs of the field of play i.e. the wall or fence should not surround a training complex area or any such other area, and the ground must give an overall appearance and impression of being a football ground. The recommended height of boundary structure is 2 metres.

Entry: The club shall ensure that it has a system of recording entry numbers to the ground.

Pitch Perimeter Barrier: Refers to barrier or rail that separates spectators from the playing area. It is not a crush barrier which has been constructed and tested in accordance with the requirements of the Green Guide. A permanent and adequate perimeter pitch protection system shall surround the playing area separating it from spectators. This shall be of sound construction and free from any sharp edges. Permanent wire fencing is not permissible.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 07 February 2012 - 23:59

[Hillonearth]

cmontheloknow, on 07 February 2012 - 21:58, said:

The criteria for new members of the SFA was (and remains) an enclosed ground, but it was not part of the criteria for existing members and has never been applied to them. When it comes to the Scottish Cup, the only stipulation re: ground was a roped off pitch and changing rooms nearby. Had Peebles Rovers etc kept up their membership, they'd still be in. It's all about to change though.

The bulk of the EoS and SoS sides that don't appear in the cup are no more Full Members of the SFA than Pollok or Linlithgow and are excluded from automatic entry on the same basis. The only difference between say Lothian Thistle and Pollok is that they play in a league affiliated to the SFA, whereas Lok play in an affiliated association. And even more so now with both set-ups on the plywood Non Professional board.

Something thickos like McKeown forget when lambasting the Juniors for entering the cup is that senior non-league sides (if that even exists anymore) can qualify by winning their league, as Crichton did a few years back.

On unenclosed parks, of the current SFA membership, you have Newton Stewart, Civil Service Strollers and Coldstream. Wigtown's park is free to wander into also though I suppose is basically enclosed. Glasgow Uni I've not been to but I'm sure I read someone comment on the Girvan tie and say it was unenclosed.

I went to the Glasgow Uni v Brechin Scottish Cup game, which was the biggest they'd hosted since they moved to the Science Park - under normal circumstances you can just wander in, but they'd enclosed it after a fashion with that red plastic fencing-in-a-roll stuff around the pitch and at the entrances to the complex to direct cars etc and to prevent free entry. The facilities were perfectly adequate for the crowd that night (4-500?) but I think they'd struggle to accommodate much more than that - just shallow grass banking on each side and flat behind either goal.

[HibeeJibee]

It'll be interesting to see how both Glasgow and Edinburgh react to the Licensing demands over the next 4 years... Both have an advantage over say Coldstream, Civil, or a couple of the SOS sides, in that they own their own open complexes (and may have more enclosed areas elsewhere in the facility) and have the significant clout of the institution to perhaps assist financially.

[Clayhole Blue]

cmontheloknow, on 07 February 2012 - 23:36, said:

I've heard the same story for Newton Stewart - that they can block access - but I'm sure if I said I wanted to take my nephew to the see-saw behind the pavilion they'd be fairly powerless to stop me!

To be fair you could say the same about some bigger venues too - thinking of the likes of the hill above Cliftonhill (was this the one called the Aberdeen Gate?), and Cappielow which you could see into from the car park. Both of these clearly have boundary walls but because of the lie of the land not much could be done about people watching from outside.

But I do know what you are meaning - we were at Wigtown this season - sort of enclosed but easily overlooked from a golf course - separated from it by a fence which you could see through.

[Hillonearth]

Clayhole Blue, on 08 February 2012 - 13:00, said:

To be fair you could say the same about some bigger venues too - thinking of the likes of the hill above Cliftonhill (was this the one called the Aberdeen Gate?), and Cappielow which you could see into from the car park. Both of these clearly have boundary walls but because of the lie of the land not much could be done about people watching from outside.

But I do know what you are meaning - we were at Wigtown this season - sort of enclosed but easily overlooked from a golf course - separated from it by a fence which you could see through.

Good few Junior grounds like that too - Kilbirnie's Valefield is notorious for the hill overlooking one end of the park that a few locals have a carry-out on watching the first half and then walk in for nothing at half time!

[Chinese Whisperer]

Remember Clydebank's Kilbowie Park. Folk could look in above the ground also, at the railway bridge end. Think the police sometimes used to move them on though.