[banterman86]

Morning all,

Now, in my opinion, the Guardiola era Barca team is the best in history. I have explained why on numeorus occasions on here so forgive me if I don't rehash it again.

Watching the Valencia game last night, a thought struck me, and I fugred it would be a decent "What if?" for a thread title

If Lionel Messi did not exist/had not been signed by Barca/whatever how good would this current Barcelona team still be?

My take is that they;d still be up there as the best team in the world - the championships won by the Spanish national team show how strong the Barca 5s team of Puyol-Piwue-Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta is, but would they be seriously troubling the 90s Milan, 70s Ajax, and 50s Real for the title best club side ever without him?

And as a knock on effect, who would have taken his place, and how would his absence have effected the tactical evolution of this Barcelona team?

[Gaz]

If they didn't have Messi they'd have signed Villa four or five seasons ago while he was properly in his prime. I still think they'd have been the best club side ever.

[Gaz]

If they didn't have Messi they'd have signed Villa four or five seasons ago while he was properly in his prime. I still think they'd have been the best club side ever.

[Gaz]

Dunno why that posted twice!

[Highlandmagyar]

No question!! Barcelona would still be a class act! Messi just adds sublimly to the glitteri of them!

Surprised that County didnt swoop for him at deadline to push them over the line!!

[banterman86]

Gaz, on 02 February 2012 - 10:22, said:

If they didn't have Messi they'd have signed Villa four or five seasons ago while he was properly in his prime. I still think they'd have been the best club side ever.

That's an interesting point - would they have? messi's move to his central postion began roughly halfway through guardiola's second season, and even then it was a little unusual. he was more or less a right sided forward at this point, with Henry and Eto'o taking the left and centre

[Cammy35]

I agree with Gaz if they didn't have him they would have brought in someone else probably Villa. Maybe even Henry would have got a chance to shine in a more central position for a spell. Also agree that the Spanish national side are proof in a way that Barca would still be great without Messi. That said with him they are even better.

[Erin Go Bragh]

Not sure, but IMO Messi will go down as the greatest footballer of all time. Even when people know what he's going to do they still can't stop him.

[fueradejuego]

All great teams have a number of great players with arguably one standing above all others.

For Ajax in the 1970's, it was Cryuff.

For Madrid in the late 1950's and early 1960's, it was probably Puskas.

You could maybe argue about the Milan team in the early 1990's but it would be either Gullit or Van Basten. From the team which won the CL and reached the following final, I think there is much more of an argument that this was a complete unit with no real stand outs although you could argue for Baresi or Maldini at the back or Desailly in midfield.

Rather than argue whether Barca would be this good without Messi, would Messi be able to function at the level which he does without a system which is now built around him and which to a degree allows him more freedom than any players within the team and without players of the calibre of Puyol, Xavi and Iniesta?

Also worth remembering that part of the reason behind the sale of Ronaldinho and Eto'o was the manner in which they were leading Messi astray and with both out of the way, Messi could become the central figure (worth bearing in mind though that Guardiola and Eto'o more or less fell out. Not surprising when Eto'o could start a fight in an empty room).

My own view is that at their peak last season, without Messi, Barca would not have reached that level.

Conversely, this season with his form having shaded and given his relutance now to agressively press from the front, you could argue having someone else in the team, to give Messi a break, would be of benefit to the team.

Against Valencia last night, he often held on to the ball too long or made the wrong pass. Bear in mind that for the vast majority of players he is still way above them, but given the levels he himself set, he has probably dropped below this recently.

This post has been edited by fueradejuego: 02 February 2012 - 12:55

[banterman86]

fueradejuego, on 02 February 2012 - 12:54, said:

All great teams have a number of great players with arguably one standing above all others.

For Ajax in the 1970's, it was Cryuff.

For Madrid in the late 1950's and early 1960's, it was probably Puskas.

You could maybe argue about the Milan team in the early 1990's but it would be either Gullit or Van Basten. From the team which won the CL and reached the following final, I think there is much more of an argument that this was a complete unit with no real stand outs although you could argue for Baresi or Maldini at the back or Desailly in midfield.

Rather than argue whether Barca would be this good without Messi, would Messi be able to function at the level which he does without a system which is now built around him and which to a degree allows him more freedom than any players within the team and without players of the calibre of Puyol, Xavi and Iniesta?

Argentina probably answers that nicely.

Quote

Also worth remembering that part of the reason behind the sale of Ronaldinho and Eto'o was the manner in which they were leading Messi astray and with both out of the way, Messi could become the central figure (worth bearing in mind though that Guardiola and Eto'o more or less fell out. Not surprising when Eto'o could start a fight in an empty room).

Yeh. So how do you think Guardiola would have evolved barca without Messi?

[forameus]

Personally, I don't think Barca would be anywhere near the same team without Messi. Don't get me wrong, they would still have been up there challenging for honours, but I don't think they would have won as many.

I haven't got Sky Sports, so the chances I get to watch La Liga are few and far between. I managed to catch the second Clasico last week, and also the Barca game in La Liga before that (Betis possibly?) while I was down in London. In the league game, he bagged a hat-trick, and the third was a goal I don't think anyone else could have scored. He took the ball up in a position of no danger, and then proceeded to dribble his way around the remaining opposition and slot it past the keeper. The acceleration he managed, coupled with the almost supernatural control while at pace, was unbelievable. There is certainly no-one in that Barca team who could have done it. Messi, when on his game, gives you that unknown quantity, similar to when Ronaldo was at United. Both men could conjure something of nothing when needed. Without him, I think Barca would play in a similar way to Spain (more similar than they do now). They would still play their short passing game, but at times they rely on Messi to provide that piece of brilliance. If he wasn't there, I don't think Barca would be the same team.

[Granny Danger]

Barca would not be nearly the same without Messi. Sure he needs the other players to do what they do to allow him to play in the style he chooses, however I cannot imagine they would be as good without the number of goals and assists he offers. Can't be arsed looking it up but there is a stat over recent seasons of the number of goals Barca scores when he is playing and when he is not, and it is quite significant.

The OP mentioned the Valencia game last night and that game illustrated for me Barca's dependency on not just Messi but also on the Xavi/Iniesta partnership and on Alves. Even when one of the midfield duo are out or Alves is out the do not control the game as effectively or look such an attacking threat.

Still on the game, Barca looked poor Valencia looked really impressive and the highlight of the game was Puyol (after being punted back to central defence) leading an attack that included two Cryuff turns.

This post has been edited by Granny Danger: 02 February 2012 - 13:44

[Disco Dave]

Interesting discussion.
It's fascinating to watch Barcelona when they lose a key player to injury etc and it really shows just how important each of the first team are.

Losing Puyol to injury last season was a huge blow and even though he seems to have lost a yard of pace, I can still see a difference in the team when he plays. He really is everything that a team captain should be.

Iniesta seems like another who is hard to replace. Fabregas doesn't have the same vision when he's pulled back to midfield.

However, watching a few pre-season games, when Alves was out due to the Copa America, Dos Santos seemed to slot in quite nicely to his position.
Shame that we hardly seem his now, as Alves doesn't really seem to ever miss games.

With Villa being out, I honestly think that they're stronger. Sanchez actually seems to understand the offside rule.


But, from the subject, it's hard to imagine how Barcelona would have evolved without Messi. I can't think of anyone else who has the same talent who would be worth 'evolving' a playstyle around.
I wonder how Rooney would fit in? Or Tevez? Or Michael Moffat?

This post has been edited by Disco Dave: 02 February 2012 - 13:52

[forameus]

It's certainly an interesting question. Amazes me to see how many will blindly say that Barcelona are the most awesome team ever to have graced the earth, and how no-one will ever touch them, and yet if they get unlucky, and are missing Xavi/Iniesta/Messi all in one game, they will struggle and look distinctly ordinary.

I suppose that raises another point - why do you very rarely see the most important Barca players on the injury list? Obviously they get injuries, but every season Man Utd seem to have an entire first team on the treatment table at some point. Do they just take better care of themselves? Do they work comparatively less with the style of play they have?

[fueradejuego]

forameus, on 02 February 2012 - 14:27, said:

I suppose that raises another point - why do you very rarely see the most important Barca players on the injury list? Obviously they get injuries, but every season Man Utd seem to have an entire first team on the treatment table at some point. Do they just take better care of themselves? Do they work comparatively less with the style of play they have?

One possible reason is that La Liga is physically less demanding than the Premiership.

Teams in England will keep competing even when 2-0 or 3-0 down whereas in Spain, the game is lost. Regroup and move onto the next game.

Add to that, the physical combative nature of some teams and you can see the physical demands upon the players is probably greater.

[fueradejuego]

banterman86, on 02 February 2012 - 12:58, said:

Argentina probably answers that nicely.




Yeh. So how do you think Guardiola would have evolved barca without Messi?

I'll get back to you tonight on this one. Too busy just now for my thesis on it

[cheesy]

They'd still be up there among the best teams in the world, however I don't think they'd be as dominant without Messi. They'd be a lot more like the Spain side: a team who has a lot of quality and controls games easily, but often only wins by the odd goal or two, and generally don't run away with games.

[fueradejuego]

banterman86, on 02 February 2012 - 12:58, said:

Argentina probably answers that nicely.

The weight of expectation on Messi with Argentina is massive. Argentine football is going through a period where they don't really produce any decent full backs or goalkeppers. They just keep on churning out small stocky attacking players which leads to a massive imbalance in the team which Messi is supposed to address by dropping deeper and deeper.

banterman86, on 02 February 2012 - 12:58, said:

Yeh. So how do you think Guardiola would have evolved barca without Messi?

Much like Spain to be honest.

The 4-3-3 system which Guardiola utilises would still be there. Its how all the teams from youths upwards play at Barcelona. A direct result of the influence of Cryuff who of course also had a massive influence on Guardiola who he coached as part of the Dream Team.

What they would lack is the moments of explosive genius which Messi can bring. Another player would have fulfilled a role in a similar position but obviously at a level below that at which Messi operates.

What you would have is an intelligent and mobile central striker and two wide players who offer pace and direct style like Pedro and Sanchez. The central striker would stay high up the pitch or perhaps interchange with one of the wide players. I doubt they would have the same freedom which Messi is granted or that they would be listed as a striker and yet drop as deep as Messi does. The ystem would have been tweaked slightly to suit the players a Barca team minus Messi would have at their disposal.

All great teams lose a key player at some point and certain sections of the media begin the myth of how the team will never be the same again and yet, curiously, the team always re-emerges.

When Messi does not play, Barcelona do miss him greatly but that is because they are becoming increasingly reliant upon him at times. With Villa out injured, they have no identifiable goalscorer in the team. Sanchez may move infield but his goalscoring record demonstrates that he is not an out and out goalscorer. Sanchez and Pedro will weigh in with goals but the team now relies on Messi and when he has a dip in form which I think he is suffering right now, the team starts to struggle that little bit more.

[Swampy]

Does anyone have a list of major games that FCB have played without Messi?

[The Kazakh Saint]

Swampy, on 03 February 2012 - 16:00, said:

Does anyone have a list of major games that FCB have played without Messi?

So what is the reason that Barca are trying their best to throw away this years La Liga?

[The Troll]

People used to say Manchester United wouldn't cope without Cantona, idea's ridiculous. And to be fair i think in some situations Barca would be better off without Messi