[FilthyMack]

There was a time when all you would hear from Ross County and a certain, long since disappeared forum member, is how great our youth policy is. Most of the emphasis is now on the first team squad. The only player I can think of in the current squad who has made an appearance (as a sub when we were several goals up in a Scottish Cup tie) this season who came through County's youth ranks is Alex Cooper, and he was basically re-signed as a free agent after spending a couple of years at Liverpool when we needed an u-21 for the Scottish Cup (We only have one other u-21 in the squad, who came from Hibs).

Very few players ever came through from our heavily invested in youth policy to make the grade. Don Cowie is a local lad who is the best example of success, it's arguable whether he wouldn't have made it anyway to where he is now. In County's case it's a complex issue as it helped pave the way for the Highland Football Academy behind the away end, but it's certainly no sure fire way to insuring a great future. Were that the case we would never have seen the budget restructuring we have at County.

[Cliche Guevara]

Completely agree with the above!

Tonsilitis, on 02 February 2012 - 10:37, said:

There has to be more investment in bringing youth on in Scotland. If SPL clubs would invest what they currently pay to sign over the hill foreigners looking for a last pay check, our game would be the better for it. A few clubs have benefited from good youth setups but it is a bit cyclical and you see a particularly good crop coming from a club followed by leaner years. Clubs that fit that pattern include

Hamilton with players like McCarthy, have more than repaid their investment in youth

Livingston had a fantastic crop of youth players but seemed to be too financially inept to properly capitalise. They included Dorrans, Snodgrass, Griffiths, Mackay and others

Hibs had a generation including Brown, Whittaker, O'Connor, Riordan, Thompson, etc. Difference between Hibs and Livi is that they made over £8m from their youth players

Even Rangers have had some pay back from Murray Park with £8m for Alan Hutton plus Mcgregor regarded as worth a few bob.

Currently, Falkirk seem to be bringing on a lot of good boys and even my own Morton have the most promising set of youngsters we have had for years including legend Warren Hawke's son, Lewis Hawke who has scored 20 odd goals in about a dozen appearances for our 19s. Clubs have to have a professional approach to youth football to make sure the maximise the benefits but its a long term investment

Sorry but I have to say that is a classic view I disagree with.

First of all, I think we should remember that every player was a young player once.

Hamilton: McCarthy may or may not have repaid Hamilton's investment but maybe it was more to do with the artifical pitch which - I'm pretty sure - was required to fund and facilitate their youth set-up in the first place. Let's not forget there are not too many McCarthy's in Scotland and we'll have to see how his career ultimately ends up.

Livi: Yeah we keep hearing about these guys but Livi managed this when they were around the fourth biggest spenders in Scotland, and is a further legacy of their cheating. They were poaching players (and coaches) from the likes of Hibs and Hearts and none of the guys mentioned were local boys that they specifically developed. They were players they enticed to the club, with the money they didn't have, from other teams and - again - these were the talents of the time. The real test for Livi's system will be in a year or two in seeing whether they can replicate previous success with an SFL3 or SFL2 youth set-up rather than over-inflated SPL.

Hibs: Terrific bunch of players there, but you are going to expect one of the biggest clubs in Scotland to produce some decent talent. As I said earlier, young players - who go on to have a decent career - are always going to start somewhere in the game. I'm not even sure Hibs were doing anything that different from anyone else at youth level at that time anyway. It will be interesting to see when they produce another crop like that right enough.

I'm not sure how much more investment you can afford to make. Players get U-19 football and that is certainly a platform for them to show they deserve a chance in a more Senior setting. The fall-out rates are so high, however, and there are so many variables that you can't guarantee any degree of success never mind return in investment.

I honestly feel we look for 'quick fix ideas' in this country, such as the 'We need to invest more in youth' attitude. Certainly if every youngster had an opportunity then we would ensure we have the maximum number of players to choose from and see develop. I'm not convinced there are loads of talents currently being lost to the game at the moment, however, because they don't have a club or can't get first team football.

You can't teach natural ability and it probably just isn't there to the extent we would hope for, unfortunately.

[vikingTON]

I tend to agree with the above, an added factor that probably hasn't been given enough attention is reputation. Livingston should still get a decent pick of youngsters because of their track record of bringing players through. There is, however, a finite amount of talented footballers in any population, never mind one as relatively small as the Scotland's, and not every club can adopt the same policy. Some clubs would be better taking the cast-offs from others, look at the cases of Paul McGowan, Gardyne, mark Millar, and almost certainly Michael Tidser in the near future.

I'd rather we looked further afield to boost our chances also. Bachirou was at Paris St Germain before being released and we've picked up a gem of a player IMO. I couldn't care where our players came from if they were of decent standard for an acceptable outlay. Many youth policies seem to have no tangible return on the investment.

This post has been edited by vikingTON: 02 February 2012 - 14:27

[Cliche Guevara]

I think there is also the feeling of some kind of 'moral' victory, for some people, in being relegated with a bunch of 18/19 year olds who come from near your town.

The problem is it's only really a tangible victory for SFL3/Junior clubs looking for their next crop of drop-outs.

[spiggle]

Tonsilitis, on 02 February 2012 - 10:37, said:

Livingston had a fantastic crop of youth players but seemed to be too financially inept to properly capitalise. They included Dorrans, Snodgrass, Griffiths, Mackay and others

Hibs had a generation including Brown, Whittaker, O'Connor, Riordan, Thompson, etc. Difference between Hibs and Livi is that they made over £8m from their youth players

Another blinkered inaccurate view of Livingston.

MacKay was never a product of the Livingston Youth

Dorrans, we sold for a 6 figure sum and had a sell on clause which Massone bought out before he left, Snodgrass was sold on by Pearse Flynn for a 6 figure sum. Griffiths was sold on for a 6 figure sum . Murray Davidson was sold on with Mackay for a 6 figure sum.

These deals were done under Massone or Flyyn. Massone screwed us over then walked away with the money. Flynn struggled with 1st division finances.

We've learned from our sordid past and are now trying to live within our means. We are bringing youth players through the system and either selling them on (Halliday to Middlesborough (6 figure sum and sell on and McKee to Burnley ( 6 figure sum and sell on) or playing them in our first team.

Currently we have David Sinclair, Kyle Jacobs, Mark McNulty, Stefan Scougall, Keighan Jacobs, Darren Jamieson and Calum Fordyce who are either current first team regulars or feature regularly in the squad all from our youth team.

We have also won the SFL Under 19's league for the past 3 seasons and reached the SFA Under 19 Cup semi finals the last 2 seasons (only to lose to Celtic who won it both times)

We have one of the best youth policies in Scotland which is often overlooked by our murky past.

You compare Hibs youth who sold for millions as they were SPL youth at the time and playing against Rangers and Celtic every week witth our Youth who were playing SFL youth every week. In hindsight, we got screwed, we still got 6 figure sums for the big youth players at the club at the time. Something not to be sniffed at as an SFL club.

In the past we have done alot of things wrong, our youth policy is not one of them.

[Cliche Guevara]

spiggle, on 02 February 2012 - 14:42, said:

Another blinkered inaccurate view of Livingston

vvv

spiggle, on 02 February 2012 - 14:42, said:

MacKay was never a product of the Livingston Youth

Dorrans, we sold for a 6 figure sum and had a sell on clause which Massone bought out before he left, Snodgrass was sold on by Pearse Flynn for a 6 figure sum. Griffiths was sold on for a 6 figure sum . Murray Davidson was sold on with Mackay for a 6 figure sum.

These deals were done under Massone or Flyyn. Massone screwed us over then walked away with the money. Flynn struggled with 1st division finances.

We've learned from our sordid past and are now trying to live within our means. We are bringing youth players through the system and either selling them on (Halliday to Middlesborough (6 figure sum and sell on and McKee to Burnley ( 6 figure sum and sell on) or playing them in our first team.

Currently we have David Sinclair, Kyle Jacobs, Mark McNulty, Stefan Scougall, Keighan Jacobs, Darren Jamieson and Calum Fordyce who are either current first team regulars or feature regularly in the squad all from our youth team.

We have also won the SFL Under 19's league for the past 3 seasons and reached the SFA Under 19 Cup semi finals the last 2 seasons (only to lose to Celtic who won it both times)

We have one of the best youth policies in Scotland which is often overlooked by our murky past.

You compare Hibs youth who sold for millions as they were SPL youth at the time and playing against Rangers and Celtic every week witth our Youth who were playing SFL youth every week. In hindsight, we got screwed, we still got 6 figure sums for the big youth players at the club at the time. Something not to be sniffed at as an SFL club.

In the past we have done alot of things wrong, our youth policy is not one of them.

This post has been edited by Cliche Guevara: 02 February 2012 - 14:50

[orco]

Cliche Guevara, on 02 February 2012 - 14:47, said:

vvv

That's a pathetic response Cliche. At least tell us what bits spiggle got wrong.

[Cliche Guevara]

Well, for a start, this is about youths not the politics of Livi FC.

It's completely blinkered and inaccurate to try and separate Livi's successful youth development from their financial misdealings. There are still players coming through the system as a result of previous overspending.

The infrastructure to produce those young players costs money. The coaching costs money. The players initially sold on for fees were there as a result of money the club didn't have. The system has been in place for a while but it would be far more difficult to implement it now.

Massone and Flynn were 'Livingston'. Any financial incompetence levelled at Livi is levelled at those people so, really, he is defeating his own argument.

I also see that McKee left three seasons ago, having been at Dundee Utd previously, and was full-time with Halliday also leaving two seasons ago having been at Rangers and on a full-time contract in SFL3.

The boys around the team now were able to develop at a lower level. Continue to pay your own way, and sell on young players in the next few years for significant fees, and maybe Livi can be used as a good example.

Livi complaining about being screwed is priceless. Meantime I think some reality and humility remains in order. I'm not actually trying to have a go at Livi though, it's just a bit of perspective on the point.

Anyway back to the youths.

This post has been edited by Cliche Guevara: 02 February 2012 - 20:51

[spiggle]

Cliche Guevara, on 02 February 2012 - 19:01, said:

Well, for a start, this is about youths not the politics of Livi FC.

It's completely blinkered and inaccurate to try and separate Livi's successful youth development from their financial misdealings. There are still players coming through the system as a result of previous overspending.

The infrastructure to produce those young players costs money. The coaching costs money. The players initially sold on for fees were there as a result of money the club didn't have. The system has been in place for a while but it would be far more difficult to implement it now.

Massone and Flynn were 'Livingston'. Any financial incompetence levelled at Livi is levelled at those people so, really, he is defeating his own argument.

I also see that McKee left three seasons ago, having been at Dundee Utd previously, and was full-time with Halliday also leaving two seasons ago having been at Rangers and on a full-time contract in SFL3.

The boys around the team now were able to develop at a lower level. Continue to pay your own way, and sell on young players in the next few years for significant fees, and maybe Livi can be used as a good example.

Livi complaining about being screwed is priceless. Meantime I think some reality and humility remains in order. I'm not actually trying to have a go at Livi though, it's just a bit of perspective on the point.

Anyway back to the youths.

It is about youth and its about time that you got your so-called facts straight.

Pearse Flynn tried to disband the youth, it was only through the finance from the 50-50 half-time draw and money from the supporters clubs that the youths continued. The new owners have set up a youth initiave Through this and grants given by the SFL and government, Livingston do run the Youth on a separate financial footing to the rest of the club.

Regarding Joe McKee, he was at Dundee Utd Youth from the ages of 7 until the age of 12. He moved to Livingston Youth at 12 years old. Came through our youth and signed. Saying that he was a Dundee Utd youth product is stretching things. He hadn't even reached puberty when he left Dundee Utd

Halliday was released as a Rangers youth at the age of 15. He then signed for Livingston Youth at that age, played in the Livingston youth system from the age of 15. Again saying that he was a Rangers youth product is stretching things, he wasn't old enough to get a job when he left Rangers.

The youth set up that we have just now is a fantastic set up which is producing players that are playing in our first team. You quote young players that signed full-time contracts whilst we were in the 3rd Division. The players were no longer eligible under YTS terms. We are a full-time club, what were we going to do, sign them on an amateur contract.

The whole discussion here is about youth, we normally on matchdays have 6 to 8 youth players in the squad and our under 19's are romping the Under 19 league and have done for the past 4 seasons. We are developing and playing our youth. Our past financial model and the way that our club was run was done badly, as a club we have taken our punishment (which was harsher than Dundee's for the same offence). Now we live within our means and bring our youth through. I'm happy with that as are most Livi fans.

[Cliche Guevara]

Yeah but the points made originally were how Livi's youth policy also previously benefited from being a top 4 spending SPL team (hence my references to Halliday and McKee your last exports), and that attendant financial mis-management meant they didn't fully benefit from their system.

My former point still remains, and you seem to be repeatedly confirming Tonsolitis's later point.

The real test of a Livi youth policy is going forward from here, not legacies from the dark days of the financial mis-management that is well documented. That's actually a point every Livi fan should agree with me on, and you probably need to have a wee lie down and a few deep breaths and give it some more thought.

Winning the SFL U-19 league four seasons-in-a-row is a tremendous achievement, of course, but is part of a new era. Once players are being sold on, who are products of the new system you mentioned, then that is a vaild reflection of the current system. A comparison drawn between the current regime and any previous regime is valid would you not agree?

[spiggle]

Cliche Guevara, on 03 February 2012 - 12:35, said:

Yeah but the points made originally were how Livi's youth policy also previously benefited from being a top 4 spending SPL team (hence my references to Halliday and McKee your last exports), and that attendant financial mis-management meant they didn't fully benefit from their system.

My former point still remains, and you seem to be repeatedly confirming Tonsolitis's later point.

The real test of a Livi youth policy is going forward from here, not legacies from the dark days of the financial mis-management that is well documented. That's actually a point every Livi fan should agree with me on, and you probably need to have a wee lie down and a few deep breaths and give it some more thought.

Winning the SFL U-19 league four seasons-in-a-row is a tremendous achievement, of course, but is part of a new era. Once players are being sold on, who are products of the new system you mentioned, then that is a vaild reflection of the current system. A comparison drawn between the current regime and any previous regime is valid would you not agree?

The youth system previous came from when we were in Division One, not SPL top 4. But hey, we agree to disagree.

I agree with your former point that the test is how the youths perform from when we are managing within our means which is from 2 and a half years ago when we entered division 3.

I think we'll see how we progress from here.

The youth talent we have coming through is mainly local and I along with alot of other Livi fans want to put the previous crap behind us and get on with being a proper club again.

I'm happy enough with the way that we are progressing and don't want us to slide back to the dark days of Massone.

It is good to see teams like Falkirk, Raith Rovers and Ayr blood through their youths as well.

[sergie's no1 fan]

honestboy, on 01 February 2012 - 18:51, said:

think that is a poor statment to make ...so if your 17 and not ready for the first team your not good enough says alot for the qos 19s who are already at his club ..plus they boys are in the scottish cup q/f ..what ensentive is there for a young boy

It is.

Not surprised though, Gus said to one of our young players he'd never kick a ball for StMirren's first team.

Now he is one of Scotland best young talents

[Tonsilitis]

spiggle, on 02 February 2012 - 14:42, said:

Another blinkered inaccurate view of Livingston.

MacKay was never a product of the Livingston Youth

Dorrans, we sold for a 6 figure sum and had a sell on clause which Massone bought out before he left, Snodgrass was sold on by Pearse Flynn for a 6 figure sum. Griffiths was sold on for a 6 figure sum . Murray Davidson was sold on with Mackay for a 6 figure sum.

These deals were done under Massone or Flyyn. Massone screwed us over then walked away with the money. Flynn struggled with 1st division finances.

We've learned from our sordid past and are now trying to live within our means. We are bringing youth players through the system and either selling them on (Halliday to Middlesborough (6 figure sum and sell on and McKee to Burnley ( 6 figure sum and sell on) or playing them in our first team.

Currently we have David Sinclair, Kyle Jacobs, Mark McNulty, Stefan Scougall, Keighan Jacobs, Darren Jamieson and Calum Fordyce who are either current first team regulars or feature regularly in the squad all from our youth team.

We have also won the SFL Under 19's league for the past 3 seasons and reached the SFA Under 19 Cup semi finals the last 2 seasons (only to lose to Celtic who won it both times)

We have one of the best youth policies in Scotland which is often overlooked by our murky past.

You compare Hibs youth who sold for millions as they were SPL youth at the time and playing against Rangers and Celtic every week witth our Youth who were playing SFL youth every week. In hindsight, we got screwed, we still got 6 figure sums for the big youth players at the club at the time. Something not to be sniffed at as an SFL club.

In the past we have done alot of things wrong, our youth policy is not one of them.

Firstly, sorry, I confused MacKay with Davidson. Financial ineptitude is maybe the wrong expression given the succession of unhinged gangsters who have been in charge of Livi. Its a shame though that the club has been unable to capitalise on what I agree is one of the best conveyor belts of talent in Scotland. Hamilton are similar sized club but managed to win a lot more on the transfer market for their youth players. Was McCarthy better than Snodgrass or at least £1m better? I don't see that and so the difference has to be how the clubs portrayed themselves and marketed the players.

[Skyline Drifter]

Tonsilitis, on 03 February 2012 - 16:30, said:

Was McCarthy better than Snodgrass or at least £1m better? I don't see that and so the difference has to be how the clubs portrayed themselves and marketed the players.

McCarthy was at least ten times the player Snodgrass was whilst both were playing at this level. The success of Snodgrass down South continues to astound me considering he was so poor at times up here he was punted out to Stirling Albion a division down and didn't even look good there (appreciate he was playing a different position at the time).

Dorrans looked better than Snodgrass but both McCarthy and McArthur for that matter looked much better players to me. In fact whilst we're on the subject, Davidson and Griffiths looked much better players than Snodgrass too.

[Tonsilitis]

Cliche Guevara, on 02 February 2012 - 14:16, said:

Completely agree with the above!



Sorry but I have to say that is a classic view I disagree with.

First of all, I think we should remember that every player was a young player once.

Hamilton: McCarthy may or may not have repaid Hamilton's investment but maybe it was more to do with the artifical pitch which - I'm pretty sure - was required to fund and facilitate their youth set-up in the first place. Let's not forget there are not too many McCarthy's in Scotland and we'll have to see how his career ultimately ends up.

Livi: Yeah we keep hearing about these guys but Livi managed this when they were around the fourth biggest spenders in Scotland, and is a further legacy of their cheating. They were poaching players (and coaches) from the likes of Hibs and Hearts and none of the guys mentioned were local boys that they specifically developed. They were players they enticed to the club, with the money they didn't have, from other teams and - again - these were the talents of the time. The real test for Livi's system will be in a year or two in seeing whether they can replicate previous success with an SFL3 or SFL2 youth set-up rather than over-inflated SPL.

Hibs: Terrific bunch of players there, but you are going to expect one of the biggest clubs in Scotland to produce some decent talent. As I said earlier, young players - who go on to have a decent career - are always going to start somewhere in the game. I'm not even sure Hibs were doing anything that different from anyone else at youth level at that time anyway. It will be interesting to see when they produce another crop like that right enough.

I'm not sure how much more investment you can afford to make. Players get U-19 football and that is certainly a platform for them to show they deserve a chance in a more Senior setting. The fall-out rates are so high, however, and there are so many variables that you can't guarantee any degree of success never mind return in investment.

I honestly feel we look for 'quick fix ideas' in this country, such as the 'We need to invest more in youth' attitude. Certainly if every youngster had an opportunity then we would ensure we have the maximum number of players to choose from and see develop. I'm not convinced there are loads of talents currently being lost to the game at the moment, however, because they don't have a club or can't get first team football.

You can't teach natural ability and it probably just isn't there to the extent we would hope for, unfortunately.

I have a (very) peripheral involvement with youth at Cappielow and it is clear that the minimum spend on a decent youth setup is £70-80k per annum so you are right about it being an expensive business. Alan Moore also points out to me that bigger clubs have full time youth setups and being able to work with the boys more than a couple of nights a week makes a big difference. Hamilton were reputedly spending well over £200k a year on their youth system although I doubt if that is true now.

A good youth system needs a lot of organisation and commercial nouse. Hamilton sold McCarthy for £1.5m? from memory whereas Snodgrass went from Livi for something over £100k. Was there over £1m difference in the ability and therefore worth of these guys? I don't see that and so a lot is down to how they are marketed and the perception of the selling club. Livi have been seen as a firesale club due to their problems in recent years whereas Hamilton seem to be more secure financially.

What is a good return from a youth system? If you grow your own decent first division journeymen with two or three breaking though each year, thats potentially a good return. If your club has the right connections and scouting especially in your local area, then every so often you will pick up a gem like McCarthy or Snodgrass. Making money from that is where the commercial nouse comes in.

Finally on teaching natural talent, I agree to some extent but equally, natural talent needs decent tuition. You can possess a wonderful natural talent for music but you are never going to play that guitar or keyboard until someone shows you how or teaches you to read music. Morton have just signed a deal with a local organisation called First Touch in Greenock who take young kids in and teach them the basics of the game from about age 7. They will then pass boys to our 13s etc.

[orco]

Tonsilitis, on 03 February 2012 - 16:30, said:

Firstly, sorry, I confused MacKay with Davidson. Financial ineptitude is maybe the wrong expression given the succession of unhinged gangsters who have been in charge of Livi. Its a shame though that the club has been unable to capitalise on what I agree is one of the best conveyor belts of talent in Scotland. Hamilton are similar sized club but managed to win a lot more on the transfer market for their youth players. Was McCarthy better than Snodgrass or at least £1m better? I don't see that and so the difference has to be how the clubs portrayed themselves and marketed the players.

Financial ineptitude is exactly the correct expression.

I remember getting so frustrated during Snodgrass's last season because Flynn would not offer him an improved extended contract. The result was that his contract ran down and he went for next to nothing. We were a bit luckier with Dorrans where we got a decent fee plus add ons in the transfer window and were allowed to keep him till the end of the season. It was patently obvious that they were talented young footballers who were capable of doing well as they developed. Then Massone came in and sold McPake for £30k, M Davidson for £30k with Dave McKay thown in for free because he had dared to speak out about not being paid and sold the Dorrans sell on rights for £50k.

[cheesy]

I would like to see more getting put into youth development. The major problem though is cost. Could all clubs afford to implement good youth facilities for their players? The idea sounds all well and good, but I don't know if it's sustainable.