[honestboy]

after watching my own club bring in youth players from down south and watching our own u19s team ...ireally think the only way for scottish football to go is to have a selected number of u20 in the first team squad ...plus i would think tht bringing back the reseve league back would do the youth boys a world of good ...

[ffcsam]

Reserve League costs too much.

[itzdrk]

ffcsam, on 01 February 2012 - 17:22, said:

Reserve League costs too much.

does it cost considerably more than the closed doors friendly matches the clubs seem to play once a fortnight roughly

[itzdrk]

on this subject, couple weeks ago i think it was craig brown saying on the radio he had a certain number of young players in his team that day due to injuries and the club got a financial reward for playing so many youngsters

can anyone confirm whether such a rule exists , how many youngsters it is , how much etc
or am i slevering as usual

[ffcsam]

itzdrk, on 01 February 2012 - 17:26, said:

does it cost considerably more than the closed doors friendly matches the clubs seem to play once a fortnight roughly

I think it almost certainly would.
Time to sound the Hibbee horn

[Kitty_Boy]

honestboy, on 01 February 2012 - 17:20, said:

after watching my own club bring in youth players from down south and watching our own u19s team ...ireally think the only way for scottish football to go is to have a selected number of u20 in the first team squad ...plus i would think tht bringing back the reseve league back would do the youth boys a world of good ...

The solution to this particular problem at Ayr United is a new manager.

[honestboy]

Kitty_Boy, on 01 February 2012 - 17:32, said:

The solution to this particular problem at Ayr United is a new manager.

lol you could be right there ...big reid thinks tht just because he brings boys up from the english leagues tht there better than the boys tht are hear ...ryan connely ..for example ..good player but there are boys already at the club tht could do just as good a job as him

[Cliche Guevara]

In my view this is becoming more and more of a tired theory.

One unintended consequence is you'd have loads of players who hadn't made it being dumped on the scrap-heap at 23/24. Each season there would be another intake of 18/19 year-olds who will be tomorrow's Policemen, Financial Advisers and Junior footballers.

Youth players will make it if they are good enough, I have no doubt. The fall-out rates are too high, however, to guarantee any kind of success.

Just by playing young players you don't make them good. Teams like Falkirk and Hamilton have produced good natural talents and done well out of the transfer market recently. I think it's a total fallacy, however, to think that it can be replicated to any great extent simply by giving youngsters a regular game, at the expense of senior pros.

[HibeeJibee]

There is an SFL Reserve League, actually the League Cup with 10 pool games then a Final, but it's been declining year-on-year. Only 12 clubs entered last season, and its down to 6 this season, and 2 of those (Queen's Park + Cowdenbeath) play outwith the First Division.

SPL and Scottish Cup both have rules on X number of U21 players in matchday squads.

SFA are pushing to replace the SPL U19 league with an U20 league next season. According to Stewart Regan's tweets - it would be assisted financially by SFA, clubs could field certain 'over-agers' (in the region of 2 outfielders and 1 goalkeeper possibly), and importantly in terms of this thread... a few top SFL clubs may be permitted to join.

[honestboy]

Cliche Guevara, on 01 February 2012 - 17:40, said:

In my view this is becoming more and more of a tired theory.

One unintended consequence is you'd have loads of players who hadn't made it being dumped on the scrap-heap at 23/24. Each season there would be another intake of 18/19 year-olds who will be tomorrow's Policemen, Financial Advisers and Junior footballers.

Youth players will make it if they are good enough, I have no doubt. The fall-out rates are too high, however, to guarantee any kind of success.

Just by playing young players you don't make them good. Teams like Falkirk and Hamilton have produced good natural talents and done well out of the transfer market recently. I think it's a total fallacy, however, to think that it can be replicated to any great extent simply by giving youngsters a regular game, at the expense of senior pros.

why has ayr utd signed so many boys from the academy and not used them hawkshaw,crawford,shankland,patterson,armstrong, kelly,moore,fisher ...thts not including the 2 boys signed from rangers mcgill and dyer ...really dont think reid is intrested in youth would rather give mcmanus and burke who has just left a weekly donation ,,,surley youth are better than those 2

[itzdrk]

HibeeJibee, on 01 February 2012 - 17:45, said:

There is an SFL Reserve League, actually the League Cup with 10 pool games then a Final, but it's been declining year-on-year. Only 12 clubs entered last season, and its down to 6 this season, and 2 of those (Queen's Park + Cowdenbeath) play outwith the First Division.

SPL and Scottish Cup both have rules on X number of U21 players in matchday squads.

SFA are pushing to replace the SPL U19 league with an U20 league next season. According to Stewart Regan's tweets - it would be assisted financially by SFA, clubs could field certain 'over-agers' (in the region of 2 outfielders and 1 goalkeeper possibly), and importantly in terms of this thread... a few top SFL clubs may be permitted to join.

and im sure ayr are in it actually

[FC_1919]

HibeeJibee, on 01 February 2012 - 17:45, said:

There is an SFL Reserve League, actually the League Cup with 10 pool games then a Final, but it's been declining year-on-year. Only 12 clubs entered last season, and its down to 6 this season, and 2 of those (Queen's Park + Cowdenbeath) play outwith the First Division.

SPL and Scottish Cup both have rules on X number of U21 players in matchday squads.

SFA are pushing to replace the SPL U19 league with an U20 league next season. According to Stewart Regan's tweets - it would be assisted financially by SFA, clubs could field certain 'over-agers' (in the region of 2 outfielders and 1 goalkeeper possibly), and importantly in terms of this thread... a few top SFL clubs may be permitted to join.

Gus MacPhearson totally slated the idea of U20's at our AGM, he also basically said 19's is pointless saying that if a boy is 17 and not knocking on the door of the first team there was no point in keeping him other than to release him two years later.

[HibeeJibee]

itzdrk, on 01 February 2012 - 17:48, said:

and im sure ayr are in it actually

You are, although you currently sit bottom with 6pts and a GD of -17. I can see it dying-off pretty soon: few clubs carry significant first-team squads now, and a lot of games are little more than U19 ties.

FC_1919, on 01 February 2012 - 18:19, said:

Gus MacPhearson totally slated the idea of U20's at our AGM, he also basically said 19's is pointless saying that if a boy is 17 and not knocking on the door of the first team there was no point in keeping him other than to release him two years later.

It may well happen with 12 SPL and maybe 4 top SFL clubs. Pathway will then be 17s > 20s > first-team. Presumably SFL clubs involved would leave SFL U19s. It's to help get SPL fringe adult players games, too, I suspect.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 01 February 2012 - 18:33

[honestboy]

FC_1919, on 01 February 2012 - 18:19, said:

Gus MacPhearson totally slated the idea of U20's at our AGM, he also basically said 19's is pointless saying that if a boy is 17 and not knocking on the door of the first team there was no point in keeping him other than to release him two years later.

think that is a poor statment to make ...so if your 17 and not ready for the first team your not good enough says alot for the qos 19s who are already at his club ..plus they boys are in the scottish cup q/f ..what ensentive is there for a young boy

[auff]

itzdrk, on 01 February 2012 - 17:29, said:

on this subject, couple weeks ago i think it was craig brown saying on the radio he had a certain number of young players in his team that day due to injuries and the club got a financial reward for playing so many youngsters

can anyone confirm whether such a rule exists , how many youngsters it is , how much etc
or am i slevering as usual

Also seen it in a paper a few months ago dont know if it for all the players under a certain age but i think the figure was £1000, it mite be only speeeel tho

[HibeeJibee]

Yes... from memory, an SPL clubs gets £800 for each game where 2 Scottish U21s take the field, and £1,000 where 3+ do so.

Amounts are 1/10th in SFL - so £80 for 2 Scottish U21s, and £100 for 3+.

[itzdrk]

HibeeJibee, on 01 February 2012 - 19:53, said:

Yes... from memory, an SPL clubs gets £800 for each game where 2 Scottish U21s take the field, and £1,000 where 3+ do so.

Amounts are 1/10th in SFL - so £80 for 2 Scottish U21s, and £100 for 3+.

if there was a level playing field £30k+ would be a great boost to some SFL clubs providing they had 3 most weeks

[HibeeJibee]

Stewart Regan was challenged on the 1/10th thing... I think Longmuir and some SFL clubs did voice their unhappiness... but he said since SPL is a higher level, and since there are fewer U21s being played by SPL clubs currently, the reward (and thus encouragement) should be higher.

That said, I'm still sceptical many/any SPL managers will actively change their team selections to get the £££.

[itzdrk]

HibeeJibee, on 01 February 2012 - 20:34, said:

Stewart Regan was challenged on the 1/10th thing... I think Longmuir and some SFL clubs did voice their unhappiness... but he said since SPL is a higher level, and since there are fewer U21s being played by SPL clubs currently, the reward (and thus encouragement) should be higher.

That said, I'm still sceptical many/any SPL managers will actively change their team selections to get the £££.

10th isnt high enough, i could accept half that would make sense

and i cant see a team (except maybye rangers now ) changing either for it , the "benefit" isnt there unless you play 3 all season and for an SPL side roughly £36k would not be an amount of money i can see clubs desperate for

whereas just for example ayr that would be a huge incentive, where just less than £4k really isnt

[craigkillie]

FC_1919, on 01 February 2012 - 18:19, said:

Gus MacPhearson totally slated the idea of U20's at our AGM, he also basically said 19's is pointless saying that if a boy is 17 and not knocking on the door of the first team there was no point in keeping him other than to release him two years later.

I'd say he's talking rubbish in that respect. Different players develop at different paces. Steven Naismith was in our first team at 17, but Jamie Hamill didn't make his debut until he was nearly 21.

There are plenty of other late developers. I'm sure Stephen McManus was 23 before he became a regular at Celtic, and he went on to win 3 league titles, become their captain and pick up plenty of Scotland caps.

[FC_1919]

craigkillie, on 01 February 2012 - 21:16, said:

I'd say he's talking rubbish in that respect. Different players develop at different paces. Steven Naismith was in our first team at 17, but Jamie Hamill didn't make his debut until he was nearly 21.

There are plenty of other late developers. I'm sure Stephen McManus was 23 before he became a regular at Celtic, and he went on to win 3 league titles, become their captain and pick up plenty of Scotland caps.

He was advocating going back to a straight reserve league where the good 17s would get a chance to mix with adults on a regular basis.

I do agree players develop at different times, but our 19s being run very strangely now. With them at Carlisle with Gretna 2008 FT, doing some college course and training. With Gus being in Glasgow with the first team, we will never likely know.

I don't particularly rate our 19s for what its worth, other than Gav Reilly who trains with the first team anyway.

[veteran]

FC_1919, on 01 February 2012 - 18:19, said:

Gus MacPhearson totally slated the idea of U20's at our AGM, he also basically said 19's is pointless saying that if a boy is 17 and not knocking on the door of the first team there was no point in keeping him other than to release him two years later.

McPherson also said we were lucky to have a player like Simmons !
I hope we're no keeping him for two years.

This post has been edited by veteran: 01 February 2012 - 23:56

[callum-ayr]

I would love to see young Mark Shankland get a chance in the first team, been training with Liverpool and Burnley, touted with moves down south and to the old firm and no been called up to the provisional Scotland under 17 squad for a tournament, surely worth a pop? He might only be 17, but you just have to look at Falkirk with Sibbald and Fulton, good bunch of young players.

[Tonsilitis]

There has to be more investment in bringing youth on in Scotland. If SPL clubs would invest what they currently pay to sign over the hill foreigners looking for a last pay check, our game would be the better for it. A few clubs have benefited from good youth setups but it is a bit cyclical and you see a particularly good crop coming from a club followed by leaner years. Clubs that fit that pattern include

Hamilton with players like McCarthy, have more than repaid their investment in youth

Livingston had a fantastic crop of youth players but seemed to be too financially inept to properly capitalise. They included Dorrans, Snodgrass, Griffiths, Mackay and others

Hibs had a generation including Brown, Whittaker, O'Connor, Riordan, Thompson, etc. Difference between Hibs and Livi is that they made over £8m from their youth players

Even Rangers have had some pay back from Murray Park with £8m for Alan Hutton plus Mcgregor regarded as worth a few bob.

Currently, Falkirk seem to be bringing on a lot of good boys and even my own Morton have the most promising set of youngsters we have had for years including legend Warren Hawke's son, Lewis Hawke who has scored 20 odd goals in about a dozen appearances for our 19s. Clubs have to have a professional approach to youth football to make sure the maximise the benefits but its a long term investment

[callum-ayr]

Tonsilitis, on 02 February 2012 - 10:37, said:

There has to be more investment in bringing youth on in Scotland. If SPL clubs would invest what they currently pay to sign over the hill foreigners looking for a last pay check, our game would be the better for it. A few clubs have benefited from good youth setups but it is a bit cyclical and you see a particularly good crop coming from a club followed by leaner years. Clubs that fit that pattern include

Hamilton with players like McCarthy, have more than repaid their investment in youth

Livingston had a fantastic crop of youth players but seemed to be too financially inept to properly capitalise. They included Dorrans, Snodgrass, Griffiths, Mackay and others

Hibs had a generation including Brown, Whittaker, O'Connor, Riordan, Thompson, etc. Difference between Hibs and Livi is that they made over £8m from their youth players

Even Rangers have had some pay back from Murray Park with £8m for Alan Hutton plus Mcgregor regarded as worth a few bob.

Currently, Falkirk seem to be bringing on a lot of good boys and even my own Morton have the most promising set of youngsters we have had for years including legend Warren Hawke's son, Lewis Hawke who has scored 20 odd goals in about a dozen appearances for our 19s. Clubs have to have a professional approach to youth football to make sure the maximise the benefits but its a long term investment

Was speaking to my mate pre match at Hampden on Saturday regarding Hibs' old team, you add Murray and (in his prime) Sproule to that team, give them a decent goalie and it could have been a potential title winning team, David Murphy another player who was a decent player.