[lithgierose]

Tynieness, on 01 February 2012 - 12:34, said:

Definitely - The standard offered in both the east and west superleagues is very good - just look how competitive both of these leagues are, and the impressive way in which the junior clubs performed in senior scottish cup

i would expand the amount of teams in top leagues as 22 games is not enough IMO for to decide the championship - I would bin the league cup as it is just a glorified preseason kickabout, which takes up precious fixture space in the height of summer

that the bill paid wb

[The Old Northerner]

Perthboy, on 01 February 2012 - 14:22, said:

Have cup ties outwith the winter months if possible, i know this goes against the grain though. Start the Scottish Cup earlier and consign clubs to league games in the winter months. I'm aware though that the SJFA would need to get the ball rolling on that score!! But maybe it would stop this ridiculous "3 strike postponement" rubbish!!
I'm sure guidelines can be set up. Things like play "local" league games in the winter so that pitch inspections aren't at 9am after a bit of frost and then again when we get lighter nights. Try to play the furthest away games in August/September/October/March/April/May to enable clubs good travelling time in decent conditions for a 2.30 kick off.
These are just suggestions and someone(everyone) will pick holes in this but it's just thinking out loud.
It might enable clubs to sell hospitality at more than a week or months notice!!
The fixture list could also be amended should clubs be out of the Scottish Cup/EOS in the early stages.
With a bit of thought, it could be workable.

I'm pretty much in agreement with all points - although having had a wee try at designing a 40 week calendar getting a balance between cup & league games is bloody difficult even with all 40 weeks available. We are a Cup heavy grade, I know, but Cup matches every two weeks for the first 10 weeks looks quite odd

[drivethru]

I think Perthboy's proposal makes a lot of sense and if the senior can rearrange matches to tale into account early exit from cup competitions, then no reason why the juniors can't.

[Perthboy]

The Old Northerner, on 01 February 2012 - 14:32, said:

I'm pretty much in agreement with all points - although having had a wee try at designing a 40 week calendar getting a balance between cup & league games is bloody difficult even with all 40 weeks available. We are a Cup heavy grade, I know, but Cup matches every two weeks for the first 10 weeks looks quite odd

It doesn't need to be a "perfect" fixture list with regards to the guidelines i've mentioned, just as near to perfection as the Match Secretery can manage!!haha.

I suppose a lot will depend on what reconsruction, if any, is done. IF, and it's a huge if, we get 14/16 team leagues up and down the region then the emphasis HAS to be placed more on league games than cup ties. Keep the Scottish, East of Scotland and 1 more regional cup at a push and the fixture list would be managable surely.
IF come season's end there are loads of teams finishing early then introduce another cup, maybe even the League Cup.

[The Old Northerner]

Perthboy, on 01 February 2012 - 11:30, said:

Some of the Fife teams at last night's meeting want to go back to the Fife League set up!! So they can have derby games like "Lochore v Ballingry" again!!! Not the best at all.

I'd be interested to know the numbers thinking like this. I would imagine a few would change their mind if there was half a dozen clubs trying to eke out bonanza derby fixtures in their own closed league.

[tellyboy]

Perthboy, on 01 February 2012 - 14:22, said:

Have cup ties outwith the winter months if possible, i know this goes against the grain though. Start the Scottish Cup earlier and consign clubs to league games in the winter months. I'm aware though that the SJFA would need to get the ball rolling on that score!! But maybe it would stop this ridiculous "3 strike postponement" rubbish!!
I'm sure guidelines can be set up. Things like play "local" league games in the winter so that pitch inspections aren't at 9am after a bit of frost and then again when we get lighter nights. Try to play the furthest away games in August/September/October/March/April/May to enable clubs good travelling time in decent conditions for a 2.30 kick off.
These are just suggestions and someone(everyone) will pick holes in this but it's just thinking out loud.
It might enable clubs to sell hospitality at more than a week or months notice!!
The fixture list could also be amended should clubs be out of the Scottish Cup/EOS in the early stages.
With a bit of thought, it could be workable.

Cmon Perthboy that makes far too much sense! What has happened with the Superleagues and Premier Leagues has been great for the East Region however the Divisional Leagues are stagnating which could lead to clubs folding as their is little interest in them.

To do nothing just now is the most dangerous thing however it also has to be done right. All of your points are valid however is it down to one club to propose something for the AGM which some clubs will find small parts to not like and throw out or should the SJFA be putting things to the clubs to ask for opinions especially on some of the changes you mention above. I would go as far to say scrap replays in the early rounds as well to help with advance fixtures. All things that have been brought up a thousand times and if we want to improve the Junior game and all start to enjoy it more something must change. Our club tried some radical changes a few years ago but did not get much support. Perhaps if all the parts were broken down as seperate issues and voted on in the SJFA AGM then perhaps it may stand a better chance. Also what it several clubs put forward similiar proposals. Thats why I think its time the whole thing was opened up and discussed so that we can all help to make the correct changes to improve the game that we all spend a lot of time on but also a lot of time moaning about things that if changed would bring the game up to date.

[superdon]

Is it not possible to implement a structure similar to the West? They have 63 teams, the same number the East started this year with after Scone with drew from the Central Division.

Current West Set up:

Super League Premier: x12 - 2 relegated/ 1 play off

Super League 1st: x14 - 2 promoted & 1 play off / 4 relegated

Ayrshire League: x12 - 2 promoted

Central League 1st: x14 - 2 promoted / 3 relegated

Central league 2nd: x11 3 promoted

A possible East mirror?:

Super league: x16 - 2 relegated

Premier League: x16 - 2 promoted / 4 relegated or 2 relegated & 2 play-offs

North (current North + Kinnoull/Jeanfield/Luncarty/Bankfoot/Newburgh/ Scone): x16 - 2 promoted or 1 promoted & 1 play-off

South (current South + remaining Central teams): x23 split in 2 say 12/11 with the top league's promotion the same as the North's.

The district league would obviously be subject to change in the same way the current set up is.

This would provide 30 league games for 3 of the 5 leagues who would have 22/20. Add Scottish Cup, EOS as a minimum and other local cups depending on the number of lost weeks during the winter.

[HibeeJibee]

Think your sums went awry slightly there superdon... if you're having 2 region-wide divisions of 16, then you have 31 clubs left below to make 2 'uber-districts' of 15/16 each.

This is the format Burnieman advocated previously with the abolition of the Sectional Cup and the inter-district cups (IIRC)... i.e. you'd have 30 league games, SJFA Cup, EOS Cup, and I think he kept a cup for clubs in the district levels (Tier 3) as they tend to exit the big cups early.

Seems this was seen as too radical though? Clubs like cups, and managers like the sectional tournament.

[HibeeJibee]

drivethru, on 01 February 2012 - 14:34, said:

I think Perthboy's proposal makes a lot of sense and if the senior can rearrange matches to tale into account early exit from cup competitions, then no reason why the juniors can't.

EOS uses a fixture list which runs from August to February/March, then reissues at Christmas for February - April... and the SOS now has a more limited version that runs from August - December, and then reverts to old-fashioned block issue thereafter. Clubs eliminated from cups have a league game 'advanced', which they play on the date of the next round, instead of being idle.

Few cup ties are played between early December and late February.


Fly-in-the-ointment at Junior level may be the SJFA Cup, however.

As we've seen, replays and the scheduling of the SJFA Cup over midwinter can easily ride a coach-n-horses through each subsequent weekend.

[superdon]

HibeeJibee, on 01 February 2012 - 16:33, said:

Think your sums went awry slightly there superdon... if you're having 2 region-wide divisions of 16, then you have 31 clubs left below to make 2 'uber-districts' of 15/16 each.

This is the format Burnieman advocated previously with the abolition of the Sectional Cup and the inter-district cups (IIRC)... i.e. you'd have 30 league games, SJFA Cup, EOS Cup, and I think he kept a cup for clubs in the district levels (Tier 3) as they tend to exit the big cups early.

Seems this was seen as too radical though? Clubs like cups, and managers like the sectional tournament.

Sorry - I added 4 teams to the Super/Premier and forgot to factor this into the districts. This only makes it better though as there would be no split in the South.

If this was Burniemans original proposal then I apologise for stealing it!

Can't see why anyone would want to oppose this though because as much as the current set up has benifited the top end, as others have stated the districts appear to be suffering. Cups nowadays don't carry much (if anything) in the way of prize money (from the clubs perspective) and surely managers can tweak their pre-season preperations to be more like the proffesional game. Perhaps Perthboy could confirm?

[port]

The Old Northerner, on 01 February 2012 - 15:02, said:

I'd be interested to know the numbers thinking like this. I would imagine a few would change their mind if there was half a dozen clubs trying to eke out bonanza derby fixtures in their own closed league.

From a financial viewpoint the "crowd" at the last Lochore/Ballingry derby on 10th December for an East of Scotland Cup match was 82. That was on a head count round the park during the match and thus includes committee members etc. Paying public probably about 40! Cash at gate therefore probably about £150.Take off the cost of ref (I don't think he had Assistants) and the Clubs were left with about £50 each.

For the sectional League Cup tie, Ballingry v Lochore, in August the head count was 103.

Don't think this sort of derby can be considered a "bonanza"!

[Perthboy]

HibeeJibee, on 01 February 2012 - 16:42, said:

EOS uses a fixture list which runs from August to February/March, then reissues at Christmas for February - April... and the SOS now has a more limited version that runs from August - December, and then reverts to old-fashioned block issue thereafter. Clubs eliminated from cups have a league game 'advanced', which they play on the date of the next round, instead of being idle.

Few cup ties are played between early December and late February.


Fly-in-the-ointment at Junior level may be the SJFA Cup, however.

As we've seen, replays and the scheduling of the SJFA Cup over midwinter can easily ride a coach-n-horses through each subsequent weekend.

I'd be happy mirroring what the EOS or SOS have for a fixture list. As i said in an earlier post, have the Scottish Cup starting earlier and have a break over winter(if it's good enough for the Champions League then surely it's good enough for our wee Scottish Cup). The only bone of contention might be when to have the break as the Scottish winter is unpredictable.
I was under the impression there was a "working group" looking into the best way forward for the East Region but maybe i'm wrong.
A fair few managers use the League Cup as part of their pre-season but i'm sure if you asked any of them then they wouldn't have a problem going straight in to League games. After all every team will be on a similar footing.
I favour Burnieman's proposal over every other but i'm as sceptical as he seems to be about it. It might be just too radical for some.
And as Tellyboy points out, it's important NOW to make the right changes for the good of the game in the East. The biggest problem is, everyone has differing opinions on " the good of the game"!!!

[neutral observer]

Last nights proposal 1, from a lithgae representative.

Superleague stays the same i.e 2 relegated.
premier stays the same i.e 2 up, 3 down.

New league 'championship'

Made from 3 relegated teams from premier plus 3 teams (2nd, 3rd, 4th at the end of the season with the winners going straight into premier as norm) from north, central, south.

2 further new leagues 'North and South' made up from remaining teams.

Relegation super/prem unchanged then end of new season 3 teams promoted from championship, with bottom 2 teams of championship automatically relegated. With 1 automatic promtion from both North and South.

Then there will be another 2 places up for grabs in the new championship with an 8 team playoff (3rd and 4th bottom of championship with 2nd, 3rd, 4th of both North and South)

Think that about covers it, IMO it's PISH and has no chance of being passed.

2nd proposal from an Oakley rep.

Increase both super/prem to 14 teams, still 2 down, 2 up between these 2 leagues.

Still 3 auto rele places from prem with 1 auto promo from 3 district leagues, only adding in a play off between the 2nd place teams and the 4th bottom of the prem.

I like this one much better, it might actually be the happy medium that will keep everyone happy. These are the only 2 options that are to be discussed by the clubs and then give feed back at next meeting to then hopefully get it passed come June. I'm not sure the 2nd is radical enough but at least it would be a step in the right direction. Taking a small step at this stage might not be a bad thing, we can always look again in a few years and see where we are at.


Meant to add, on the 2nd proposal i'm not sure how they will decide on how they come to the starting figure of 14 in both super/prem, perhaps someone has more info on this.

This post has been edited by neutral observer: 01 February 2012 - 17:50

[patriot1]

The Linlithgow proposal is a non starter for me. The 2nd option has a lot more merit as anything which keeps the Central league is fine by me. I would still prefer to see 16 teams in the super & premier but at least the regional league runners up have a chance of promotion.

[HibeeJibee]

Is the first proposal from Linlithgow... forming a third region-wide division - and consolidating the remaining clubs into 2 'uber-districts' below... not the same as that which was defeated back in June?

Anyway, so the 2 options are:

Quote

The Linlithgow Plan

12
(2-up-2-down)
12
(3-up-3-down)
12
(2-up-2-down... plus 8-team play-off: Championship 9th, 10th, North 2nd, 3rd, 4th, South 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
14-14


The Oakley Plan

14
(2-up-2-down)
14
(3-up-3-down... plus 4-team play-offs: Premier 11th, North 2nd, Central 2nd, South 2nd)
12-12-12

R.e. the Oakley plan... Is there space in the calendar to add 4 matches to the Superleague and the Premier (plus 2-stage play-offs for Premier 11th on top)?

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 01 February 2012 - 18:10

[Perthboy]

HibeeJibee, on 01 February 2012 - 18:06, said:

Is the first proposal from Linlithgow... forming a third region-wide division - and consolidating the remaining clubs into 2 'uber-districts' below... not the same as that which was defeated back in June?

Anyway, so the 2 options are:



R.e. the Oakley plan... Is there space in the calendar to add 4 matches to the Superleague and the Premier (plus 2-stage play-offs for Premier 11th on top)?

The Linlithgow proposal is very similar to the one defeated in June. I don't think there was mention of an 8 team play off in the June one though.
I prefer the Lithgae one but i have to say the 8 team play off would need to be seriously looked and simplified for me to have total faith in it.
Saying that, if the Oakley proposal was amended and had 16 in the top 2 divisions i'd probably go for that 1.
Unlike Patriot1, i'd be glad to see the back of the Central League and go to a North and South region instead. Patriot1, it would not be possible or feasible to have 2x16 in the top 2 leagues and still retain 3 regional leagues in my opinion.

[HibeeJibee]

Presumably, the Linlithgow plan has 8 play-off sides drawn into 2 groups of 4 or 2x Semis > Final... winners of each group or Finals play Championship next season.

Did either propose scrapping any cups?

[AlanCamelonfan]

What I would rather have is:

SUper League x16
Premier League x 16
North Division x16
South Division x16

To keep the Leagues level they might need to move the northern fife clubs between the two bottom divisions to make the numbers work as happens in the Conference North and South Divisions in England. 2 up and down in super league/premier with relegation play off between third bottom and third top. 4 relegated from Premier with 2 up from each division.

Cup Competions have Scottish Junior Cup, East of Scotland cup and all in League Cup 8 groups of 4 would give 3 games at the start of the season as extra preperation just played Wednesday, Saturday, Wedneday then begin the League following Saturday.

Alan

[Perthboy]

AlanCamelonfan, on 01 February 2012 - 19:02, said:

What I would rather have is:

SUper League x16
Premier League x 16
North Division x16
South Division x16

To keep the Leagues level they might need to move the northern fife clubs between the two bottom divisions to make the numbers work as happens in the Conference North and South Divisions in England. 2 up and down in super league/premier with relegation play off between third bottom and third top. 4 relegated from Premier with 2 up from each division.

Cup Competions have Scottish Junior Cup, East of Scotland cup and all in League Cup 8 groups of 4 would give 3 games at the start of the season as extra preperation just played Wednesday, Saturday, Wedneday then begin the League following Saturday.

Alan

That is the exact set-up Burnieman proposed and personally speaking it's what i'd go for.
It would work a treat at the end of this season( i know, who am i kidding)!!
There are only 11 teams in the Superleague right now so promote the top 5 from the Premier to make the 16.
This would leave 7 in the Premier, before any relegation. So promote the top 3 in each Regional League to make it up to 16.
Or if you want to complicate things further have the bottom 3 Premier play-off against the 4th place regional in a 2 legged tie with the winners of each tie staying/joining the Premier.

[Joethistle]

neutral observer, on 31 January 2012 - 23:54, said:

'FINE', all well lets just leave it then.

IMO, the superleague would most difinately be enhanced by adding further teams, as would the premier. I can only see positives with such a move.

Yes the positives would be teams bankrupt trying to afford travel.

[shanks]

cookieboy, on 01 February 2012 - 11:19, said:

Does any one agree that we could go back to the old original regional leagues which would cut down on travel and probably increase the crowds. this is how the leagues would work out going by current league positions.2 Leagues of 14 & 13 and I believe they would be as close as the leagues are now and not one game more than 45 minutes from the house .


League 1
Linlithgow
Bonnyrigg
Bathgate
Camelon
Boness
Musselburgh
Newtongrange
Penicuik
Broxburn
Sauchie
Armadle
Arniston
Dalkieth

League 2
Fauldhouse
Tranent
Blackburn
Dunbar
Whitburn
Spartans
Livingston
Haddington
West Calder
Pumpherston
Stoneyburn
Edinburgh
Harthill"

Not the.........tributions from committed supporters at many junior clubs across Scotland
Sponsored by Ultra-Soft Limited Latest Comments from ARFC Feedback Page In this weeks Issue...... <A class=style43 href="http://www.ultrasoft.hostinguk. com/Arniston2/commentsxx.asp" target=_blank>Click here to see more comments or to post one. Great shout!! Can't see it happening though. The high heid yins would do their best to advise clubs that it wouldn't look good to revert to as was. When league reconstruction was first muted, clubs were told that no one would be worse off financially. That turned out to be bollocks. Prize money for winning leagues & cups (in Fife anyway) is much less than it was before all the changes. And another thing - are the juniors not becoming a laughing stock by changing their set up (or at least attempting to change things) what feels like almost every second year.

Click here to see more comments or to post one.</FONT>
</SPAN>

[HTG]

Tell us what's changed in the last 10 years then Shanks???

[LTBUF]

How old is the East region Premier league? If it is more than ten years then that is just scary!

HTG, on 01 February 2012 - 21:15, said:

Tell us what's changed in the last 10 years then Shanks???

[Perthboy]

It's not 10 years old. I think the Premier started in 2006. Or was it 2005? Definitely not a decade though.

[Simmy87]

AlanCamelonfan, on 01 February 2012 - 19:02, said:

What I would rather have is:

SUper League x16
Premier League x 16
North Division x16
South Division x16

To keep the Leagues level they might need to move the northern fife clubs between the two bottom divisions to make the numbers work as happens in the Conference North and South Divisions in England. 2 up and down in super league/premier with relegation play off between third bottom and third top. 4 relegated from Premier with 2 up from each division.

Cup Competions have Scottish Junior Cup, East of Scotland cup and all in League Cup 8 groups of 4 would give 3 games at the start of the season as extra preperation just played Wednesday, Saturday, Wedneday then begin the League following Saturday.

Alan

I think this is the best way forward