[rw89]

Pele has banged on about winning three world cups, but you never really hear him mentioned as one of the greats in world cup goalscoring. Fontaine, Muller, Klose and Ronaldo have all scored more goals, so can they claim to be some of the best players in the world? As has been covered, Pele played his days out at Santos, in a league which is speculative in comparison to the one in which Messi plays now. Also, he does have ridiculous views and opinions on record already.

[Marshmallo]

Jimmy85, on 21 January 2012 - 17:39, said:

Did Pele not name a woman and El Hadj Diouf in his 100 greatest players of all time? Probably best if he kept his opinions to himself tbh.

He was asked to name the 100 greatest living players. He compiled a list of 125 with two women and El Hadji Diouf but no Jairzinho IIRC.

[HibeeJibee]

Swarley, on 22 January 2012 - 03:24, said:

I disagree - Di Stefano, Puskas, Platini, Eusebio, Best, Yashin...

An even more extreme example would be George Weah... the man was a World Player of the Year yet he never even qualified for an African Cup of Nations IIRC, since he played for Liberia. Many might also say di Stefeno, Puskas, etc. could be candidates for "best player" ever - but they're downplayed as their feats happened longer ago, when aspects of football were more different.

To go even further... how many men from the early 5-6 decades of football ever make Top 100 lists?

It'll always be an ongoing debate.

[aidan-bufc]

Fair enough he won 3 world cups and Messi hasn't yet, but it is all about the team you are playing in and the quality of opposition!

Pele's Brazil were the best TEAM in the world with the best player,
Messi's Argentina are currently ranked 10th in the world, and aren't the most feared team although they have the best player in the world. They are playing against Spain (possibly one of the greatest international team ever?) whereas Pele was in one of the greatest sides.

George Best was an amazing player but because he was playing for a country that wasn't as gifted at football as the likes of Brazil etc. he can't be regarded as the one of the best players ever? Course not, that is totally out of his control.

[Swampy]

aidan-bufc, on 22 January 2012 - 12:36, said:

Fair enough he won 3 world cups and Messi hasn't yet, but it is all about the team you are playing in and the quality of opposition!

Pele's Brazil were the best TEAM in the world with the best player,
Messi's Argentina are currently ranked 10th in the world, and aren't the most feared team although they have the best player in the world. They are playing against Spain (possibly one of the greatest international team ever?) whereas Pele was in one of the greatest sides.

George Best was an amazing player but because he was playing for a country that wasn't as gifted at football as the likes of Brazil etc. he can't be regarded as the one of the best players ever? Course not, that is totally out of his control.

This is why I rate Maradona higher than Pele. Argentina '86 were good but they'll never be remembered as one of the great XIs. Maradona dragged them to that World Cup final by the scruff of the neck.

[pub car king]

Zidane is still my favourite plus he was a bit mental. His final ever game involved him getting sent off for a headbutt after having chipped a penalty off the cross bar

[LinkinFighter]

Messi hat trick tonight against Malaga

[Big River]

Pele was an incredible player but he is also an incredible fud.

Barring a career threatening injury, Messi will be the best player to ever have played the game by the time he's finished IMO, regardless of whether Argentina win a world cup or not.

[printer]

jupe1407, on 21 January 2012 - 19:29, said:

Maradona's claim is indeed a bit better. He almost single-handedly dragged an otherwise poor Argentina side to triumph in Mexico 86, and similarly I think it's fair to say Napoli would have struggled to win Serie A twice in the late 80s/early 90s without him.

They wouldn't have come lose.

murphy1970, on 21 January 2012 - 21:13, said:

Pele was a fantastic talent but his track record of the past few years suggests he is no stranger to talking nonsense. His football predictions have been about as accurate as David Icke's apocalyptic visions, although not as entertaining.
I think, barring injury, Messi will go on to establish himself beyond any reasonable doubt as the greatest player football has seen to date.
At the moment I'd still say Maradona holds that crown. I was fortunate enough to be at Hampden when he made his international debut.

Having seen Pele at his peak as well, that is my opinion too. I didn't think I would ever see anyone better than Diego. Messi is good enough for me to doubt that now.

[jupe1407]

Swampy, on 22 January 2012 - 17:24, said:

This is why I rate Maradona higher than Pele. Argentina '86 were good but they'll never be remembered as one of the great XIs. Maradona dragged them to that World Cup final by the scruff of the neck.

I was only a kid during that world Cup but i can remember Maradona's stand out performances against England and his one-man horsing of Belgium.

If you ask most football fans who were the same age i was at that time (ie 12) to name two players in that Argentina side off the tops of their heads other than Maradona, you will probably only get Burruchaga, and even then probably only because he had a semi-amusing name that sounded a lot like "shagger", and Nery Pumpido, for much the same reason.

[djchapsticks]

Supras, on 21 January 2012 - 23:33, said:

The opinions of Pele have no more merit then the opinions of, well, any other football fan.

The fact that Pelé is one of the greatest players ever to walk onto a football pitch, instantly means that people will listen to his opinions more than those of the average football fan. To me, if a large amount of people listen to you, this gives you more merit than someone who no-one listens to.

This doesn't, however, make him any more knowledgeable. This is a guy who said an African country would win the WC by 2006 and who has also tipped the USA to win one of the next three tournaments.

Much like the wonderful Barca team that Messi has around him, Pelé also had the luxury of the greatest ever international side alongside him at his and their respective peaks.

To put it into perspective about the 1283 goals thing that Pelé is bleating about. Messi is going to be Barcelona's top goalscorer of all time before 2012 is out (barring injury), he's 19 behind Cesar Rodriguez who scored 235 goals in 13 years at the club.

At 24 years old and as a player who will probably be with Barcelona for his entire career, Messi is well on course to score 500-600 goals for Barca over the course of his career. This to me is more impressive in this day and age, than 1200 goals including friendlies, exhibitions and pre-season games.

[Swampy]

jupe1407, on 22 January 2012 - 20:38, said:

I was only a kid during that world Cup but i can remember Maradona's stand out performances against England and his one-man horsing of Belgium.

If you ask most football fans who were the same age i was at that time (ie 12) to name two players in that Argentina side off the tops of their heads other than Maradona, you will probably only get Burruchaga, and even then probably only because he had a semi-amusing name that sounded a lot like "shagger", and Nery Pumpido, for much the same reason.

Yep. Valdano was a fine player as well but even the most ardent Argentina fan will admit that that was Maradona's World Cup and not Argentina's.

But even with all this taken into account I don't think it's a huge argument against Messi. Football has changed. The international game is no longer the pinnacle of football. Clubs like Napoli generally can't sign the world's best player anymore, even if temporarily. (Look at the signings PSG are making by way of comparison.) I used to work for a guy who helped finance Maradona's move to Napoli - the money he talked about was crazy at the time but there is just no comparison between then and now. So once again, I don't think the "one man team" argument is a good one against Messi. Just as Pele didn't choose how football worked in his age nor does Messi choose how things work now. He won't until he's "finished" play for a team in which he's the only star name. He won't play for a Napoli while he's the player he is now. Top clubs sign the top players - that's more true now than it ever has been in the past.

[The Troll]

Swarley, on 22 January 2012 - 03:24, said:

I disagree - Di Stefano, Puskas, Yashin...

These 3 players have more of a claim to the Greatest Ever than Messi at the moment. Di Stefano was the most complete player of his age, and could easily have played in the modern game, it's a shame he isn't remembered as much as he should be

Puskas was totally left footed, small but powerful and was the main man for one of the biggest clubs on the planet and one of the biggest national teams, sound familiar?

Where as Yashin was voted the Greatest goalkeeper of all time and i doubt anyone will ever take that from him

[jupe1407]

Swampy, on 22 January 2012 - 20:49, said:

Yep. Valdano was a fine player as well but even the most ardent Argentina fan will admit that that was Maradona's World Cup and not Argentina's.

But even with all this taken into account I don't think it's a huge argument against Messi. Football has changed. The international game is no longer the pinnacle of football. Clubs like Napoli generally can't sign the world's best player anymore, even if temporarily. (Look at the signings PSG are making by way of comparison.) I used to work for a guy who helped finance Maradona's move to Napoli - the money he talked about was crazy at the time but there is just no comparison between then and now. So once again, I don't think the "one man team" argument is a good one against Messi. Just as Pele didn't choose how football worked in his age nor does Messi choose how things work now. He won't until he's "finished" play for a team in which he's the only star name. He won't play for a Napoli while he's the player he is now. Top clubs sign the top players - that's more true now than it ever has been in the past.

Yeah pretty fair comment.

Going further back, Udinese signed Zico after the 82 World Cup and he was one of, if not the best player in world in the early 80s. We certainly aren't going to see a return to those sorts of deals any time soon.

I don't think Messi will ever leave Barcelona, and even if he does, it may be a Henrik Larsson-style end of career wind down at his boyhood heroes, Newell's Old Boys.

However going back to the initial points made by Pele, my real beef is with his goalscoring comments. He scored 600 or so "proper goals" in "proper games" for a Santos team in an even more disorganised Brazilian league structure than exists now. By the time Messi finishes up (barring long term injury) he'll probably have scored a similar number, playing in a top domestic league, and the Champions League. Assuming Messi makes 500-600 career goals, Messi's record will have been more impressive.

[Supras]

djchapsticks, on 22 January 2012 - 20:44, said:

The fact that Pelé is one of the greatest players ever to walk onto a football pitch, instantly means that people will listen to his opinions more than those of the average football fan. To me, if a large amount of people listen to you, this gives you more merit than someone who no-one listens to.
.

Yeah, wrongly though. Rooney is a very good player - am I in any hurry to hear his opinions on football or, indeed, anything? No.

Swampy, on 22 January 2012 - 20:49, said:

Yep. Valdano was a fine player as well but even the most ardent Argentina fan will admit that that was Maradona's World Cup and not Argentina's.

Hmmm, I doubt that.

[H_B]

It has to be remembered as well, when discussing Messi not winning a World Cup, that Argentina themselves ensured that was impossible last time by appointing Maradona as coach.

Messi never will win a World Cup if they keep shooting themselves in the foot.

[djchapsticks]

Supras, on 22 January 2012 - 22:14, said:

Yeah, wrongly though. Rooney is a very good player - am I in any hurry to hear his opinions on football or, indeed, anything? No.

The point is though, that are are people who would want to hear his opinions.

[Supras]

djchapsticks, on 22 January 2012 - 22:30, said:

The point is though, that are are people who would want to hear his opinions.

Yeah, well, I definitely see where you are coming from.

I think a lot of it is down to the media, after all how many column inches and radio phone discussion goes into the Old Firm journalist are desperate to wheel out Old Firm geriatrics to talk about how "Lenny" is doing and pose for some really shit photographs. As someone who doesn't purchase any newspapers I successfully avoid most of it but is there a queue of people waiting to hear what Pele thinks? I'd hope not, but people are pretty stupid so it's more than likely.

I personally place no more value in what Pele says than what you, or any poster, says.

[aidan-bufc]

Supras, on 22 January 2012 - 22:48, said:

Yeah, well, I definitely see where you are coming from.

I think a lot of it is down to the media, after all how many column inches and radio phone discussion goes into the Old Firm journalist are desperate to wheel out Old Firm geriatrics to talk about how "Lenny" is doing and pose for some really shit photographs. As someone who doesn't purchase any newspapers I successfully avoid most of it but is there a queue of people waiting to hear what Pele thinks? I'd hope not, but people are pretty stupid so it's more than likely.

I personally place no more value in what Pele says than what you, or any poster, says.

Its not a case of listening to a crazy old man talking shit about football though (even though it seems that way now!), its a case of listening to one of the best players ever talk about the modern game, whether he's talking shit or not.