[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Milevskiy, on 09 January 2012 - 17:59, said:

Totally against it but I think it will happen

I am the complete opposite.

Whilst it would seem the momentum is pushing us towards it, I think it will pan out like a Scotland World Cup qualifying campaign. All very exciting, with a sudden acceleration of belief and excitement before we bottle it at the last minute.
A football forum really doesn't represent Scotland proportionally and the general tabloid reading welt who will ultimately decide our fate, will bow to scaremongering and sensationalism to vote for the status quo.

The big chair, on 09 January 2012 - 18:15, said:

Full independence, but I could be swayed towards devo-max if someone can explain why London wants to hold on to Scotland. If they have to subsidise us as much as they claim you'd think they'd be rushing to get us off the books.

A fine point.
This 'England subsidises Scotland' patter boils my piss. As the adminstrative and commercial capital, the City of London does subsidise Scotland, just as it subsidises everywhere else in the UK.

Apart from the fact that I truly believe Scotland could benefit economically if it had 100% of the income from its renewable energy export potential, there is a far more important reason for independance. Seeing this face after his precious union has been destroyed by the jocks would be absolutely PLEASING.

This post has been edited by SodjesSixteenIncher: 09 January 2012 - 19:10

[Granny Danger]

Full independence, withdrawl from the EU and no monarchy. Also a currency that includes bawbees and groats.

[YOGI IS GOD]

Yes to full independence. My decision is based mostly on the merits of decentralized democratic power and the fact that Scotland and England are increasingly politically divergent.


I find those who believe in the Union are often more emotionally driven than the nationalists that they so often satirise. A Scottish republican who seeks a more democratic country with no hereditary inheritance of power is much less clutched by emotion than a hot blooded Unionist who uses every fibre of their body to defend a widely unpopular and undemocratic union.


Plus I think it will be healthy for the people of England to realise that Britain no longer rules the waves. In my opinion, an independent country would make people feel more connected to the democratic system.

This post has been edited by YOGI IS GOD: 09 January 2012 - 19:10

[H_B]

YOGI IS GOD, on 09 January 2012 - 19:09, said:

I find those who believe in the Union are often more emotionally driven than the nationalists that they so often satirise.

This is lazy rubbish to be honest.

[YOGI IS GOD]

H_B, on 09 January 2012 - 19:10, said:

This is lazy rubbish to be honest.

It's just an observation from talking to people about the issue in the past, could well be proven wrong.

[THE KING]

Enrico Annoni, on 09 January 2012 - 17:32, said:

Let's just say the vote on our independence from the union was held next week.

I know we have a on going discussion on another thread, but like me, cant be bothered reading through it all, so lets just have a mini P&B referendum

How would you vote, and why?

I see the PM is tryin to strong arm Salmon into a vote sooner than the SNP want, as they want it round about the anniversirey of bannock burn and he wants it well before.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

H_B, on 09 January 2012 - 19:10, said:

This is lazy rubbish to be honest.

Not at all.

Even in their respective campaigning (guess that's not really the correct word yet) the Unionists are being far more hysterical and reliant on generiaisation than the Nats.

Was involved in a bit of a heated argument about this recently when this posh bint started on her mate for voting SNP. One was talking about the intracacies of potential Scottish independance, the other was banging on about Queen Victoria assigning clans with tartans and whether we are all '100% Scots'. When I told her that I had no Scottish heritage whatsover but voted SNP her head nearly exploded

I know this is only an example of one stupid individual, but I really believe the independance camp has promoted itself with a much greater deal of maturity and practicality than the SEETHING unionists.

[Reynard]

YOGI IS GOD, on 09 January 2012 - 19:15, said:

It's just an observation from talking to people about the issue in the past, could well be proven wrong.

All socialists are fucking c***s. Those are my own observations from years of exhaustive research.

I'm not wrong.

[H_B]

SodjesSixteenIncher, on 09 January 2012 - 19:19, said:

Not at all.

Even in their respective campaigning (guess that's not really the correct word yet) the Unionists are being far more hysterical and reliant on generiaisation than the Nats.

Pishflaps.

It has all the hallmarks of the "you know, atheists are worse than fundamentalist Christians, cos..." line.

He's not talking abuot politicians - he's talking about people. If you are trying to peddle the line that people on them thur streets who will vote No in the referendum care more about this than those who will vote Yes, you are having a laugh.

By all means, compare and contrast what political figures are doing as a generalisation. You might be right or not. But don't try to pretend that those "No" voters care more about this referendum than the Yes voters. That's just plainly wrong.

Quote

I know this is only an example of one stupid individual, but I really believe the independance camp has promoted itself with a much greater deal of maturity and practicality than the SEETHING unionists.

Mmm hmm.

[H_B]

And this is true of any similar situation. It's just a fact that those who positively want something different from the status quo are by nature going to be more evangelical about it than those who are happy where they are.

There's nothing wrong with this incidentally.

[NewBornBairn]

Seeing the way the votes go here reminds me how many children are on this site.

[xbl]

H_B, on 09 January 2012 - 19:26, said:

And this is true of any similar situation. It's just a fact that those who positively want something different from the status quo are by nature going to be more evangelical about it than those who are happy where they are.

There's nothing wrong with this incidentally.

I'm not sure that is the case though. Obviously, I can't generalise, but in my experience, If you ask a Scottish Independence supporter, in my experience, they are likely to reel off a list of reasons as to why they want independence (energy resources, self determination, bad deal from westminster etc.). If you ask a Unionist, you'll get lots of muttering about anti Englishness, some mock Braveheart "freedummmm", and some nonsense about "stronger together". The best you can get is a fear of the unknown. So the attachment to the Union seems far more emotional and less based in reality.

Obviously, thats just my opinion though.

[YOGI IS GOD]

H_B, on 09 January 2012 - 19:23, said:

Pishflaps.

It has all the hallmarks of the "you know, atheists are worse than fundamentalist Christians, cos..." line.

He's not talking abuot politicians - he's talking about people. If you are trying to peddle the line that people on them thur streets who will vote No in the referendum care more about this than those who will vote Yes, you are having a laugh.

By all means, compare and contrast what political figures are doing as a generalisation. You might be right or not. But don't try to pretend that those "No" voters care more about this referendum than the Yes voters. That's just plainly wrong.



Mmm hmm.

I really meant that Unionists seem to be driven by an irrational desire to preserve the union compared to nationalists who appear to be influenced more by an understanding of the benefits of independence to the democratic system.

I'm not claiming that unionist members of the public care about the referendum as much as nationalists, just that the basis of their unionist beliefs are driven by an irrational attachment to the British state. In the broadest possible terms, I have found that the unionist vote tends to driven more by the heart than the head.

[ayrmad]

As is, until some twat informs us we're incapable of running our own affairs.

[renton]

Tryfield, on 09 January 2012 - 18:05, said:

If the people of Scotland vote for independence, Westminster will be permanently Tory, not that that will matter up here.

I could be swayed towards Devo Max but never full independence without knowing what currency we'd be using, what our credit rating would be( because a new set-up is gonna need plenty credit) and the bigger picture of trade. If we could be like Norway and Switzerland without the burden of Brussels, then again, I'd mull it over.

It will all depend on the questions and how many there are, I can't see independence happening though.

It really won't, Labour have commanded a majority in england in just about every election it has won outright, Scotland is a comfortable cushion for them but no more than that.

Independence for me, the United Kingdom is dominated by the south east, and London particularly. As such the UK will always be run for their benefit. We have the opportunity now to create a state responsible to the people of Scotland, where decisions can and hopefully will be taken in Scotland's best interests rather than those of the English home counties.

[renton]

Reynard, on 09 January 2012 - 19:19, said:

All socialists are fucking c***s. Those are my own observations from years of exhaustive research.

I'm not wrong.

Your research is flawed by observer theory i.e. the act of observation changes the result. In your particular case, years of research and observation (being a fucking c**t to other people) has resulted in them returning the favour, thus rendering your research flawed.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

H_B, on 09 January 2012 - 19:23, said:

Pishflaps.

It has all the hallmarks of the "you know, atheists are worse than fundamentalist Christians, cos..." line.

He's not talking abuot politicians - he's talking about people. If you are trying to peddle the line that people on them thur streets who will vote No in the referendum care more about this than those who will vote Yes, you are having a laugh.

By all means, compare and contrast what political figures are doing as a generalisation. You might be right or not. But don't try to pretend that those "No" voters care more about this referendum than the Yes voters. That's just plainly wrong.

What are you on about, 'care more about this referendum?'
I never said any one side cares more about the outcome of the referendum, I agreed with Yogi's excellent post that compared to the Nats, the Unionist politicians and voters are seemily more driven by their own gut instict and emotion than the facts.

Using people I've encountered as a microcosm of the voters (not at all scientific I know), all the way up to the SNP v Tories, I have found one side to be quite positive and practical, and one side more happy to talk in generalisation with their hands firmly wringed. In terms of slinging mud and getting hysterical it has been less the 'wee man Scot' that people associate with supporting independance and more 'wee man Dave' who is clearly rattled by the groundswell of support.

Diamond Dave would do well to stick to his negative cliche riddled appeal to the lowest commen denominator (example of quoted below), because that is ultimately where he will win this referendum.

orlandoblue, on 09 January 2012 - 19:02, said:

Remain in the union, though as I've previously discussed on P&B you will never get a balanced result on any matter that involves 'the English' in any way.

[Reynard]

YOGI IS GOD, on 09 January 2012 - 19:35, said:

I really meant that Unionists seem to be driven by an irrational desire to preserve the union compared to nationalists who appear to be influenced more by an understanding of the benefits of independence to the democratic system.

I'm not claiming that unionist members of the public care about the referendum as much as nationalists, just that the basis of their unionist beliefs are driven by an irrational attachment to the British state. In the broadest possible terms, I have found that the unionist vote tends to driven more by the heart than the head.

That was rambling waffle.

[Reynard]

SodjesSixteenIncher, on 09 January 2012 - 19:49, said:

What are you on about, 'care more about this referendum?'
I never said any one side cares more about the outcome of the referendum, I agreed with Yogi's excellent post that compared to the Nats, the Unionist politicians and voters are seemily more driven by their own gut instict and emotion than the facts.

Using people I've encountered as a microcosm of the voters (not at all scientific I know), all the way up to the SNP v Tories, I have found one side to be quite positive and practical, and one side more happy to talk in generalisation with their hands firmly wringed. In terms of slinging mud and getting hysterical it has been less the 'wee man Scot' that people associate with supporting independance and more 'wee man Dave' who is clearly rattled by the groundswell of support.

Diamond Dave would do well to stick to his negative cliche riddled appeal to the lowest commen denominator (example of quoted below), because that is ultimately where he will win this referendum.

What I find more odd about this whole nonsense isn't the emotional pish attached to the nationality thing. Thats kind of understandable. Its the fucking naivety of folk thinking that by taking power from one bunch of c**t politicians and handing it over to another set of c**t politicians that this will somehow make their lives better. It won't. Politicians will still be fucking c***s out for themselves. Aye, even oor ain yins. The people who will be benefitting from this will be the politicians not normal people,

[Swampy]

NewBornBairn, on 09 January 2012 - 19:32, said:

Seeing the way the votes go here reminds me how many children are on this site.

You can click 'View' next to the poll to see who voted for what. Of the people who voted yes, I am aware of the approximate ages of the following:

uni, SaltyTON, Gordon EF, xbl, Swampy, kiwififer, Cardinal Richelieu, Fudge, Granny Danger, renton

Here's that list again with all the children removed from it:

uni, SaltyTON, Gordon EF, xbl, Swampy, kiwififer, Cardinal Richelieu, Fudge, Granny Danger, renton

[archie guevara]

Quick, someone find me a Tory to tell me what to vote.

[Reynard]

archie guevara, on 09 January 2012 - 20:00, said:

Quick, someone find me a Tory to tell me what to vote.

Vote for dead Marxists.

Or phone up John Swinney and ask him.

This post has been edited by Reynard: 09 January 2012 - 20:02

[ayrmad]

archie guevara, on 09 January 2012 - 20:00, said:

Quick, someone find me a Tory to tell me what to vote.

Whatever you think.

[Swampy]

Reynard, on 09 January 2012 - 19:57, said:

What I find more odd about this whole nonsense isn't the emotional pish attached to the nationality thing. Thats kind of understandable. Its the fucking naivety of folk thinking that by taking power from one bunch of c**t politicians and handing it over to another set of c**t politicians that this will somehow make their lives better. It won't. Politicians will still be fucking c***s out for themselves. Aye, even oor ain yins. The people who will be benefitting from this will be the politicians not normal people,

This kind of hysterical, survivalist nonsense is really just noise. There can be clear distinctions drawn between the institutions in which politicians serve - even if your contention that all politicians were identical was true (it's not) it wouldn't follow that all political systems are the same.

Still, your impassioned defence of the Union is once again noted and filed.

[Granny Danger]

Reynard, on 09 January 2012 - 19:57, said:

What I find more odd about this whole nonsense isn't the emotional pish attached to the nationality thing. Thats kind of understandable. Its the fucking naivety of folk thinking that by taking power from one bunch of c**t politicians and handing it over to another set of c**t politicians that this will somehow make their lives better. It won't. Politicians will still be fucking c***s out for themselves. Aye, even oor ain yins. The people who will be benefitting from this will be the politicians not normal people,

Do you include yourself when you use the term "normal people"?