[kiwififer]

nowthennowthen, on 25 May 2012 - 20:28, said:

People will expect education to be free post independence.

For people who don't really follow politics free education and prescriptions are the 2 most well know things the SNP have delivered.

Council tax freeze, 1000 bobbies on the beat, free personal care,

[Tryfield]

nowthennowthen, on 25 May 2012 - 20:28, said:

People will expect education to be free post independence.

For people who don't really follow politics free education and prescriptions are the 2 most well know things the SNP have delivered.

The SNP and Labour voted free prescriptions in. The Tories and Lib-Dems voted against. The SNP did suggest it though.

[capybara]

Been really busy at work so i am just catching up. But what i will say if Darling is the best the Union can send into battle then the Pro Independence parties have little top fear. He certainly has zero economic credibility.

[xbl]

What the hell are you trying to say here Tryfield? The SNP delivered good things that the Brits opposed and still oppose? If that is so, then great, welcome to the yes camp!

[Tryfield]

xbl, on 25 May 2012 - 20:49, said:

What the hell are you trying to say here Tryfield? The SNP delivered good things that the Brits opposed and still oppose? If that is so, then great, welcome to the yes camp!

I thank you.



Seriously though, could we, if independent, continue to deliver the good things to anyone who decides that Scotland is the place for them? Do we have enough tax payers to keep everything as it is?
What would get scrapped first if we discover that the pot isn't as full as we thought? I'm merely trying to look at things realistically, perhaps even cynically after so many politicians have broken so many promises.

[Kejan]

Maybe I've missed something but I had a look earlier this morning and the number of people who signed the 'declaration'. Where can I check this? Although it seems that anyone can sign. It will be interesting to see how long it takes to get 1million signatures or if it does indeed reach that number.

Any predictions on who will come out pro or anti independence? It will be interesting once the campaign really kicks on and if any footballers will get invovled. Will the likes of Levein, Walter Smith etc stick an ad in a paper around similar to the 07 election saying they were all against independence.

Certainly would set the cat amongst the pigeons if someone reasonably well known in Labour, Libs or Tories came out pro-independence e.g Henry McLeish, Malcolm Chisholm.

[kiwififer]

Tryfield, on 25 May 2012 - 21:05, said:

Do we have enough tax payers to keep everything as it is?

We get pocket money from westminster, we contribute more than we get in return and we wouldn't be pissing money up a wall with trident in foreign and foreign adventures, so I'm fairly confident that we can afford what we already have.

Of course it won't be easy, there will be hard choices ahead, but realistically, no-one can tell you what the future holds. There might be an invention created that turns peat into gold and it will make us all rich, aliens might invade Dunkeld, Donald Trump might re-grow hair, it's impossible to tell what is round the corner.

But decisions about Scotland should be made by Scots, living in Scotland. Of course the economic arguement is important, but i have said it all along, it's not really about the purse strings. it's about the direction of the country, what is best for us, who will be able to deliver what we want and how do we make it happen?

We can go down the neo-con route of David Cameron, slashing and burning everything in site, getting involved in wars on behalf of America, fighting with the neighbours that 80% of trade goes to, being shafted by corrupt politicians that take the piss over everything and watching another generation being written off.......

Or we chose to do things our way. Let's face it, it is impossible to do as bad a job as the current bunch of muppets do, if anything, it could only get better....

[xbl]

Tryfield, on 25 May 2012 - 21:05, said:

I thank you.

Seriously though, could we, if independent, continue to deliver the good things to anyone who decides that Scotland is the place for them? Do we have enough tax payers to keep everything as it is?
What would get scrapped first if we discover that the pot isn't as full as we thought? I'm merely trying to look at things realistically, perhaps even cynically after so many politicians have broken so many promises.

Giving the answer to the best of my ability, the GERS figures suggest that Scotland consistently runs a lower deficit than the UK as a whole, and currently we are delivering what we do on far less than our total revenues. So we lose out on north sea oil, on sea bed and shoreline revenues (Crown Estate), on duty and taxes, and a host of other things that go straight to Westminster. So our income will go up.

Offset against that, you have our additional costs of having to administer things like embassies, the military, full central government rather than devolution etc. So we would have additional costs to incur. However, offset against that again, we currently pay for things like that out of our lost revenues as it is, and the figures show that a higher percentage of defence money is raised in Scotland than is spent. We also would have less in terms of nuclear spending, as we wouldn't be having to pay for gigantic aircraft carriers and nuclear subs. Another example is that when George Osborne announced last year that he was going to cut fuel duty by a penny (oooooohhh!), it would be funded by an additional tax on north sea oil. Now given that 90% of north sea oil is in Scotland, imagine how much cheaper our fuel could potentially be...

So I believe we would be just as well off, if not better, and the figures seem to stack up. In fact, the majority of Unionists (not the loony ones) have adjusted their argument to say that we could be independent but...

As for what my hypothetically get scrapped first, this is where I come back to my point about how democracy works. In a UK context, imagine hypothetically that in 2013, the Tories discover a big black hole in their finances, and they announce that they are going to (say) raise prescriptions to £20 each to cover it, and that will come in in 2015. However, in 2015, Labour win the election, and they announce that the prescription increase will be scrapped, and instead, they are going to double tuition fees. It is impossible to predict these things with total accuracy when you don't know what the next government will be!

This is the problem with asking for detailed policy, it just isn't possible to give an answer. I imagine that for the first year or two, a caretaker government will be in place to sort out the technicalities, and then an election will come...we just don't know who will be voted in! There IS a fairly strong centre right character lurking in Scotland, I'm fairly centrist myself, but I could never bring myself to vote Conservative and Unionist. Freed of that Unionist connection, a new centre right party focused on Scotland could pick up a surprisingly good showing. They could also have defections, in that Swinney might decide he wants to stand for them. So they might do one thing.

Alternatively, a leftie government might be elected, or even a coalition! Each of those governments will have their own policy and agenda, and we've seen what fudges a coalition can produce, and so any detailed pledges by the Yes campaign will be completely meaningless, as it is impossible to predict right now what a government will be! A centre right party might extend a lease on trident and let the Brits use Faslane, while increasing the Scottish navy. A leftie government might go almost totally pacifist and slash the plans for a Scottish defence force. It entirely depends on what the people of Scotland vote for post independence!

Do you understand what I am saying, and why it is impossible to give precise predictions?

This post has been edited by xbl: Yesterday, 22:10

[kiwififer]

another thing, sorry to interupt XBL, if we can be trusted to run the NHS, why not the economy? If we can be trusted to run schools, why not benefits?

You see the problem?

[Tryfield]

kiwififer, on 25 May 2012 - 22:04, said:

Let's face it, it is impossible to do as bad a job as the current bunch of muppets do, if anything, it could only get better....

See, this is where I'm confused. Other than 100% employment with a higher minimum wage, I just don't see what else the politicians can bribe us with. We in Scotland currently have the social care for the elderly, free eye tests, free dental check-ups, bus passes, free prescriptions, free higher education and the cold weather payments for over 60's. What more is it that people want? Our young, sick and elderly are being looked after. If the answer is less poverty, how is it that eastern europeans can come here and get on with improving their lives? Is it because they want better for their families and are willing to work to do just that? 100% employment is a panacea that isn't going to happen.


An overhaul of work ethics and making it worthwhile to have a job rather than being better off sitting around is needed. Maybe it would be worth looking into having higher personal tax allowances where anyone on less than £10,000 - £12,000(minimum wage) is exempt from paying income tax. Voluntary work to get people to get out of the habit of doing nothing could be looked at. Get them to put something into the community and feel a part of society again rather than them vegetating away feeling worthless. If this, and other changes to social attitudes is what independence were to be all about, I'd consider it. If it's only for national pride, count me out.

This post has been edited by Tryfield: Yesterday, 23:50

[oht]

Gordon EF, on 25 May 2012 - 17:09, said:

Too many people see independence as some huge gamble where they kind of either expect it to be the best thing ever and they'll be much better off or the worst thing ever and Scotland'll become a 3rd world country and they'll lose their pensions and end up on the streets. That's just so obviously a stupid way of looking at it. The reality is, it's probably not going to make a huge difference in most people's day to day lives.

Comfortably one of the best posts in 200 odd pages of dross.

[craigkillie]

Kejan, on 25 May 2012 - 21:29, said:

Maybe I've missed something but I had a look earlier this morning and the number of people who signed the 'declaration'. Where can I check this? Although it seems that anyone can sign. It will be interesting to see how long it takes to get 1million signatures or if it does indeed reach that number.

Any predictions on who will come out pro or anti independence? It will be interesting once the campaign really kicks on and if any footballers will get invovled. Will the likes of Levein, Walter Smith etc stick an ad in a paper around similar to the 07 election saying they were all against independence.

Certainly would set the cat amongst the pigeons if someone reasonably well known in Labour, Libs or Tories came out pro-independence e.g Henry McLeish, Malcolm Chisholm.

Levein and Smith backing the union would probably see a massive surge in the Yes votes.

[Reynard]

Gordon EF, on 25 May 2012 - 17:09, said:

Too many people see independence as some huge gamble where they kind of either expect it to be the best thing ever and they'll be much better off or the worst thing ever and Scotland'll become a 3rd world country and they'll lose their pensions and end up on the streets. That's just so obviously a stupid way of looking at it. The reality is, it's probably not going to make a huge difference in most people's day to day lives.

The reality is that it's not even going to happen.

We will have more devolution, that's what the people of Scotland want.

[Reynard]

Who was that nat fud on Newsnight in the debate with Darling? He's actually trying to spout shite about the Bank of England being independent??? Who the f**k is that clown trying to kid? The central bank is absolutely political from top to bottom. If that nat "expert" is actually trying to suggest that sharing a currency with the rest of the UK post any independence means we would be in the exact same position as the rest of the UK in terms of financial levers we can pull when things go tits up then he is a fucking moron. Or is simply a lying b*****d (more likely). What a pr1ck. If he cant even get basic stuff like this remotely right then he and his party can just get themselves and their buckled socialist utopia to f**k. He made Ed Balls look like some sort of economic genius FFS.

[kiwififer]

Reynard, on 26 May 2012 - 06:51, said:

Who was that nat fud on Newsnight in the debate with Darling? He's actually trying to spout shite about the Bank of England being independent??? Who the f**k is that clown trying to kid? The central bank is absolutely political from top to bottom. If that nat "expert" is actually trying to suggest that sharing a currency with the rest of the UK post any independence means we would be in the exact same position as the rest of the UK in terms of financial levers we can pull when things go tits up then he is a fucking moron. Or is simply a lying b*****d (more likely). What a pr1ck. If he cant even get basic stuff like this remotely right then he and his party can just get themselves and their buckled socialist utopia to f**k. He made Ed Balls look like some sort of economic genius FFS.

Settle petal, yer going to give yerself a stroke.....

[Reynard]

kiwififer, on 26 May 2012 - 07:40, said:

Settle petal, yer going to give yerself a stroke.....

where the f**k did they dig him up from? He was fucking shit.

[kiwififer]

never saw it. Anyhoo, off to the protest now, I will wave a wee placard for you......

[xbl]

Reynard, on 26 May 2012 - 06:41, said:

The reality is that it's not even going to happen.

We will have more devolution, that's what the people of Scotland want.

Like the SNP winning an election, that was going to happen? Like a majority, that was never going to happen? Like having a referendum, that was never going to happen?

Getting worried?

[xbl]

I feel sad that Tryfield responded to Kiwififer but not me. Still, I understand that there are many questions around Scottish independence. Well set your worries aside, for the Scotsman have produced an article titled "Scottish Independence: your questions answered"! To do it justice, I really have to quote the whole thing unbroken, so apologies for the length...

Quote

http://www.scotsman....wered-1-2318880

Scottish independence: your questions answered
Published on Saturday 26 May 2012 00:00

What is the campaign about?

Securing a Yes vote in the independence referendum expected to be held in 2014. It is built around a declaration stating that decisions about the country’s future should be taken by the people who live in Scotland.

Who are the Yes campaign?

The SNP, the Greens and a string of leading figures from the world of showbusiness and industry. It is being run by two former SNP advisers Stephen Noon and Jennifer Dempsie.

What is its vision for independence?

This is less clear. Other than agreeing on a Yes vote, organisers are very thin on the detail of where it would stand on issues such as the future of the monarchy and membership of military alliances like Nato. They say many “policy” issues can be settled if independence is achieved.

Where’s the money coming from?

The SNP received £1 million donations from both the late Makar Edwin Morgan, and EuroLottery winners Colin and Chris Weir. The Yes campaign is likely to be the better funded of the two sides.

[Scary Bear]

Reynard, on 26 May 2012 - 06:51, said:

Who was that nat fud on Newsnight in the debate with Darling? He's actually trying to spout shite about the Bank of England being independent??? Who the f**k is that clown trying to kid? The central bank is absolutely political from top to bottom. If that nat "expert" is actually trying to suggest that sharing a currency with the rest of the UK post any independence means we would be in the exact same position as the rest of the UK in terms of financial levers we can pull when things go tits up then he is a fucking moron. Or is simply a lying b*****d (more likely). What a pr1ck. If he cant even get basic stuff like this remotely right then he and his party can just get themselves and their buckled socialist utopia to f**k. He made Ed Balls look like some sort of economic genius FFS.

blaa blaa rant rant...buckled! nat! lefties! c***s!

[kiwififer]

xbl, on 26 May 2012 - 11:21, said:

I feel sad that Tryfield responded to Kiwififer but not me.

I'm box office at last! Roon ye!

I'm 3 sheets to the wind it's great! £11 for shed loads of free samples...

f**k yous all !