[Aufc]

Supras, on 13 January 2012 - 13:43, said:

What the f**k is with people and these pointless posts?

Of course I'm not a health and safety officer and if there was a point behind that baffling question you'd be as well just stating it.



Huttons one is a red card but it is not RECKLESS it

Dont get your knickers in a twist ya fud. I actually agree with you regarding the decision. However, its just the way you come across makes you sound like some militant H & S officer.

You are saying huttons challenge on long was not reckless?

[Supras]

Aufc, on 13 January 2012 - 14:27, said:

Dont get your knickers in a twist ya fud. I actually agree with you regarding the decision. However, its just the way you come across makes you sound like some militant H & S officer.

You are saying huttons challenge on long was not reckless?

Don't get so agitated by other people on a forum, grrr, *insert insult*

I have never met a health and safety officer in my life.

And yes, I'm saying exactly that, it was dangerous not reckless. If it was reckless it would just be a caution and if it was careless it'd just be a foul. It was "dangerous".

[lau03143]

Lex, on 08 January 2012 - 13:53, said:

100% red card. Dangerous play, the fact he gets the ball is irrelevant.

He lunged in with both feet. If a professional footballer can't slide tackle properly then it's pretty pathetic. If Nani was a wee bit faster he'd have a broken leg.

[Savage Henry]

H_B, on 13 January 2012 - 14:19, said:

The "common sense" line is usually followed by "well, the ref has ruined this game for the fans by sending someone off, 11 v 10 is rubbish"

Yeah, well maybe Thug McThuggery should have thought about that before he launched himself at an opponent.

Arseholes.

It's also almost always followed by "all we are asking for is consistency"...

[53_and_counting]

yesterday again we seen another couple of weird decisions that would make it seem the ref's don't follow the rules

zat knight brings down wellbeck 6 yards from goal with only the keeper to beat. And the ref only gives him a yellow card. Surely it must be a red card for denying a goalscoring opportunity.

[Supras]

53_and_counting, on 15 January 2012 - 08:45, said:

yesterday again we seen another couple of weird decisions that would make it seem the ref's don't follow the rules

zat knight brings down wellbeck 6 yards from goal with only the keeper to beat. And the ref only gives him a yellow card. Surely it must be a red card for denying a goalscoring opportunity.

So you think referees deliberately and intentionally go against the laws of the game?

Strange point of view.

[lau03143]

Supras, on 15 January 2012 - 12:59, said:

So you think referees deliberately and intentionally go against the laws of the game?

Strange point of view.

He's not saying that. Just that there is absolutely no consistency in refereeing decisions.

[53_and_counting]

Supras, on 15 January 2012 - 12:59, said:

So you think referees deliberately and intentionally go against the laws of the game?

Strange point of view.

define excessive force in a football tackle supras. How much force is excessive?

[Diamonds are Forever]

53_and_counting, on 15 January 2012 - 08:45, said:

yesterday again we seen another couple of weird decisions that would make it seem the ref's don't follow the rules

Maybe they are applying 'common sense'...

[53_and_counting]

Diamonds are Forever, on 15 January 2012 - 16:59, said:

Maybe they are applying 'common sense'...

good on them, yesterday seen at least 3 tackles worse than kompany's. more agressive, more force used, less control in the tackle, not one red card issued

if the ref in the city v united game thinks that kompany used excessive force in the tackle (doesnt matter if it was one footed or two footed) then he will be issuing a helluva lot of red cards in the rest of the season

Quote

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play

now while this is fifa's definition, what would you class as excessive force, surely every single ref cannot have the same definition of excessive force

This post has been edited by 53_and_counting: 15 January 2012 - 21:49

[printer]

53_and_counting, on 15 January 2012 - 17:51, said:

now while this is fifa's definition, what would you class as excessive force, surely every single ref has the same definition of excessive force
[/color][/size][/font]

[53_and_counting]

printer, on 15 January 2012 - 20:42, said:

ta for the heads up, not sure why i posted it like that, ive edited it now

[Supras]

lau03143, on 15 January 2012 - 15:35, said:

He's not saying that. Just that there is absolutely no consistency in refereeing decisions.

Absolutely no consistency? So everyone just does whatever they want every game?

That's an even stranger point of view. They do strive for consistency, obviously, but whilst it can be improved it will never be absolute. Referees are human beings, they interpret different incidents differently and absolute consistency is not possible in any line of work.

53_and_counting, on 15 January 2012 - 16:23, said:

define excessive force in a football tackle supras. How much force is excessive?

Well, do you expect me to say it in words or something? How can I add to what FIFA have said? It is only relevant with reference to specific incidents. Did Kompany use excessive force? Oh definitely.

Remember that post in this thread "if I'm a little bit excessive will it be a red card?" Of course it will be? Excessive = unnecessary. Clearly.

53_and_counting, on 15 January 2012 - 17:51, said:

good on them, yesterday seen at least 3 tackles worse than kompany's. more agressive, more force used, less control in the tackle, not one red card issued

if the ref in the city v united game thinks that kompany used excessive force in the tackle (doesnt matter if it was one footed or two footed) then he will be issuing a helluva lot of red cards in the rest of the season

now while this is fifa's definition, what would you class as excessive force, surely every single ref cannot have the same definition of excessive force
[/color][/size][/font]

Where are these three tackles? But if you are correct then that is an error from the three referees in questiion. People are desperate for referees to come out and say Foy was wrong to send Kompany off - he wasn't. Any ref who isn't following his example is wrong and there are far more red cards missed than erroneous red cards given - far more.

Yeah, well, if he has to he will.

Do you think each ref writes out their own definition and hangs it on their wall or something? Nobody has a definition - they have the FIFA definition and that's all. They can only interpret it based on their own individual incidents with reference to their coaching.

[HEY_SIDNEY]

Supras, I think its a good tackle, you dont, 53_and_countin thinks its a good tackle, AUFC doesnt. People have their opinions. dont reply to every single person who thinks its not a red card.

Btw, have you had your leg broke by a tackle similiar to Kompanys by any chance and are seeking revenge on anyone who says its a fair tackle in their honest humble opinion??

[Savage Henry]

lau03143, on 15 January 2012 - 15:35, said:

He's not saying that. Just that there is absolutely no consistency in refereeing decisions.

we
I disagree, the vast majority of these challenges have resulted in red cards. In the first division, Stuart Kettlewell, the Livingston guy who I had never heard of, Stephen O'Donnell of Dundee all made very similar challenges this season. All were sent off. They might not have been in the past, but they are now. Pretty much any challenge that appears out of control, whether or not contact is made, results in a red card. Players can't just go flying in anymore. When Kompany lifted both feet off the ground, he wasn't in control of the challenge, and it's only because Nani pulled back a little that he didn't have his leg broken.

Diamonds are Forever, on 15 January 2012 - 16:59, said:

Maybe they are applying 'common sense'...

See here's the thing, referees can't win. Either they use as you put it 'common sense' and discretion, or they consistently stick to the laws. People want both. It's impossible, especially given the amount of interpretation that has to go on.

[Diamonds are Forever]

Savage Henry, on 16 January 2012 - 06:11, said:

See here's the thing, referees can't win. Either they use as you put it 'common sense' and discretion, or they consistently stick to the laws. People want both. It's impossible, especially given the amount of interpretation that has to go on.

Yip, that's what I was getting at, 53_and_counting said earlier that referees should be using common sense and was then bemoaning the lack of consistancy with these types of tackles. A lot of inconsistancies are a result of referees using discretion, some people may argue they are right to do that, but you can't have both.

One example of referees using 'common sense' which has always pissed me off is in Old Firm games where in the first 5 minutes players will go flying in to tackles and deserve to be booked or sent-off, but the referee doesn't because he thinks it will lead to a whole load more bookings and cause the game to turn nasty, so they'll let it go. Clubs get fined and players get suspended for bookings and in the other 5 SPL games on Old Firm weekends players, and therefore clubs, will be getting punished for tackles that the Old Firm aren't just because it's a higher profile game. The rules should be the same across the board for every team in every game. If the game turns into a shambles because the players can't control themselves then that's the players' fault, not the referee's.

[Aufc]

HEY_SIDNEY, on 16 January 2012 - 05:54, said:

Supras, I think its a good tackle, you dont, 53_and_countin thinks its a good tackle, AUFC doesnt. People have their opinions. dont reply to every single person who thinks its not a red card.

Btw, have you had your leg broke by a tackle similiar to Kompanys by any chance and are seeking revenge on anyone who says its a fair tackle in their honest humble opinion??

I can see both sides regarding the komoany tackle. He wins the ball but uses two feet.

Supras you sound more and more like kenny young in his newspaper article.

[53_and_counting]

Aufc, on 16 January 2012 - 11:36, said:

I can see both sides regarding the komoany tackle. He wins the ball but uses two feet.

Supras you sound more and more like kenny young in his newspaper article.

the thing is using two feet isn't against the laws as such. The ref has to judge wether excessive force was used. In my opinion I've seen standing tackles with more force than kompany used. And that's the problem. The rule stating excessive force means that every single ref will see a tackle differently.

As for my common sense quote. Foy could have used his and thought "kompany didn't use a lot of force although it was two footed. It was a clean tackle with control of the ball. I'll remind him that he could get into trouble if he loses control of his next tackle like that"

in my opinion there wasn't enough force in the tackle to warrant serious foul play. Check the tackle by the Norwich lad that gave west brom their penalty. If that foul is deemed less serious than kompany's then the game has gone to pot

This post has been edited by 53_and_counting: 16 January 2012 - 13:08

[Supras]

HEY_SIDNEY, on 16 January 2012 - 05:54, said:

Supras, I think its a good tackle, you dont, 53_and_countin thinks its a good tackle, AUFC doesnt. People have their opinions. dont reply to every single person who thinks its not a red card.

Btw, have you had your leg broke by a tackle similiar to Kompanys by any chance and are seeking revenge on anyone who says its a fair tackle in their honest humble opinion??

Don't reply to them? Why the hell not?

It's interesting you are playing the sanctity of opinion card now given a few pages ago you were very bullish in saying "anyone who thinks that is a red card has never played football to any level." Yeah, well, anyone who thinks it isn't a red card (or even a foul) doesn't know the laws of the game and the current interpretations referees are given.

Health and safety officer....victim of leg breaking tackle. Why must I have an agenda? After all I've never played football to any level so I couldn't possibly have had a leg breaking tackle...right?

Diamonds are Forever, on 16 January 2012 - 10:04, said:

One example of referees using 'common sense' which has always pissed me off is in Old Firm games where in the first 5 minutes players will go flying in to tackles and deserve to be booked or sent-off, but the referee doesn't because he thinks it will lead to a whole load more bookings and cause the game to turn nasty, so they'll let it go. Clubs get fined and players get suspended for bookings and in the other 5 SPL games on Old Firm weekends players, and therefore clubs, will be getting punished for tackles that the Old Firm aren't just because it's a higher profile game. The rules should be the same across the board for every team in every game. If the game turns into a shambles because the players can't control themselves then that's the players' fault, not the referee's.

The Old Firm is a pretty difficult case given referees are explicitly told by the police to not give any red cards.

Aufc, on 16 January 2012 - 11:36, said:

I can see both sides regarding the komoany tackle. He wins the ball but uses two feet.

Supras you sound more and more like kenny young in his newspaper article.

I don't even know who Kenny Young is.

53_and_counting, on 16 January 2012 - 13:07, said:

the thing is using two feet isn't against the laws as such. The ref has to judge wether excessive force was used. In my opinion I've seen standing tackles with more force than kompany used. And that's the problem. The rule stating excessive force means that every single ref will see a tackle differently.

As for my common sense quote. Foy could have used his and thought "kompany didn't use a lot of force although it was two footed. It was a clean tackle with control of the ball. I'll remind him that he could get into trouble if he loses control of his next tackle like that"

in my opinion there wasn't enough force in the tackle to warrant serious foul play. Check the tackle by the Norwich lad that gave west brom their penalty. If that foul is deemed less serious than kompany's then the game has gone to pot

Not necessarily, referees do go through coaching sessions, they are told what is excessive force and what is not. Referees aren't discussing the Kompany challenge being a red card - they all know it is. I've always wanted pundits to be sent current coaching DVDs so they know what referees are being told and are able to make constructive comments about it instead of just complete nonsense.

And there is no doubt there are far more red cards not given that incorrectly given.

Right, so it is a foul? A yellow card? A talking to? If he did any of these things he would have been deemed to have made a serious error and would get a low mark - jepordising his career and his place on the FIFA list. So, yeah, it's quite obvious why he didn't do this.

Ah the "game has gone to pot" argument, where have you been all this time?

[ayrmad]

Is this still going on?

From the refs view he was entitled to give a red.

From the view behind Kompany it wasn't a red card, anyone with ability to control the ball with his instep is not just launching into a leg breaking tackle.

The best refs in the UK apparently can't decide what is and what isn't a red card tackle, at least half a dozen tackles worse than Kompanys since it happened have went virtually unpunished.

The game has went too far in favour of the fannies IMHO, the % of cards to tackles is a joke nowadays, I have been at many a game where the atmosphere has been lifted by a huge tackle, take that away amd we're fcuked.

No comparison between Maradona and Messi is worth tuppence, 1 was a great player who was subjected to vicious tackling on a regular basis, the other is a great player who goes out with all the confidence afforded by knowing nobody is allowed to tackle him.

Platini has allowed all this to go too far in favour of the tackled player.

[J_Stewart]

ayrmad, on 19 January 2012 - 13:17, said:

No comparison between Maradona and Messi is worth tuppence, 1 was a great player who was subjected to vicious tackling on a regular basis, the other is a great player who goes out with all the confidence afforded by knowing nobody is allowed to tackle him.

Platini has allowed all this to go too far in favour of the tackled player.

Total nonsense, did you watch that game last night? Did you see how many times Messi was kicked and fouled? The blatant boot to the knee from Carvalho from behind and the horrible stamp to the hand from Pepe especially. That's the sort of treatment he gets in every single game he plays. The fact that players are also fitter, faster and stronger now means you could also argue that a lounging tackle now will likely have more velocity behind it and therefore be even more dangerous.

Platini eh, ruining our game, imagine actually trying to protect skillful, talented footballers that people pay money to watch from getting the snot kicked out of them and continually being injured by hatchet men. What a farce. It's bloody health and safety gone mad I tells ya.

[Supras]

J_Stewart, on 19 January 2012 - 15:26, said:

Total nonsense, did you watch that game last night? Did you see how many times Messi was kicked and fouled? The blatant boot to the knee from Carvalho from behind and the horrible stamp to the hand from Pepe especially. That's the sort of treatment he gets in every single game he plays. The fact that players are also fitter, faster and stronger now means you could also argue that a lounging tackle now will likely have more velocity behind it and therefore be even more dangerous.

Platini eh, ruining our game, imagine actually trying to protect skillful, talented footballers that people pay money to watch from getting the snot kicked out of them and continually being injured by hatchet men. What a farce. It's bloody health and safety gone mad I tells ya.

Yeah, I remember reading one of those god awful list of "things to improve football" in Shortlist - well it was a preview but apparently it turned into a book.

Anyway, one was to reintroduce bad challenges with the reasoning being we don't want to see people being hurt but overpaid panseis getting kicked = fun apparently.

But then it went on to complain about how "dirty" the World Cup Final was and how it was a disgrace etc. He didn't seem to be aware how he can have such a blatant contradiction in a preview list of 10 - how much were in the overall book!

Play acting doesn't really bother me much to be honest, it is dirty challenges that are really a disgrace. Tackles like the one Kompany committed are totally unecessary and emphatically not how you tackle someone - it is right we get this out the game.

[TheLip69]

Savage Henry, on 16 January 2012 - 06:11, said:

we
I disagree, the vast majority of these challenges have resulted in red cards. In the first division, Stuart Kettlewell, the Livingston guy who I had never heard of, Stephen O'Donnell of Dundee all made very similar challenges this season. All were sent off. They might not have been in the past, but they are now. Pretty much any challenge that appears out of control, whether or not contact is made, results in a red card. Players can't just go flying in anymore. When Kompany lifted both feet off the ground, he wasn't in control of the challenge, and it's only because Nani pulled back a little that he didn't have his leg broken.



See here's the thing, referees can't win. Either they use as you put it 'common sense' and discretion, or they consistently stick to the laws. People want both. It's impossible, especially given the amount of interpretation that has to go on.

This is nonsense and let's get one thing straight, this was not a tackle on a player. Kompany went in to control a loose ball, he got there first and brought the ball under control with his foot. Watch it closely you'll see him reach the ball and bring it under control.
Excessive force my fat hairy arse, he got there at speed, gathered and brought the ball under control.
It was an excellent challenge, but Fergie's got so many fucking referees running scared Kompany was never going to get fair treatment.

[Supras]

TheLip69, on 19 January 2012 - 23:39, said:

This is nonsense and let's get one thing straight, this was not a tackle on a player. Kompany went in to control a loose ball, he got there first and brought the ball under control with his foot. Watch it closely you'll see him reach the ball and bring it under control.
Excessive force my fat hairy arse, he got there at speed, gathered and brought the ball under control.
It was an excellent challenge, but Fergie's got so many fucking referees running scared Kompany was never going to get fair treatment.

So it wasn't a tackle and there just happened to be a opposition player there?

WTF?

I've heard it "wasn't a foul" but it "wasn't a tackle"? Fucking hell.