[HTG]

Mr Tee, on 17 December 2011 - 21:47, said:

Yeh point taken. Well maybe we should just all change eh, the whole shebang haha

It just seems common sense to use the weather to our advantage, but judging by all this its never going to happen

We do. We go to fvckin Benidorm or the Open or the test match or Wimbledon. We have The Marches and The Gala Day (Linlithgow and Bo'ness). We enjoy the World Cup, the Euros, the Olympics. We have barbeques, relax in the garden, have strolls around the loch. We do a fvckin' shedload of things in the summer when we can use the weather to our advantage. We finish the season and hand out the big prizes under radiant skies. We start pre-season training at the beginning of July. We use half of June and all of August to play junior football. Can you not see that the 5 or 6 weeks we have in the middle is a time to catch some rays, do something different, spend a bit of time with the family and build excitement at the signings for the new season or frustration at the lack of them.

It's not going to change. There are 10 things we should change about junior football before we decide that it's a good idea to have pre-season in January/February and close the season with a Scottish Cup final in the pishing rain in November.

[thelegendthatis]

Kennie, on 17 December 2011 - 21:36, said:

Hi guys. One of the blazer wearing dinosaurs here.
I believe I've already stated this, but here it goes again anyway.
We do not run the Association we merely administer it.
We administer it by way of abiding by the rules and constitution laid down by the member clubs.

Here is a letter sent out from T Johnston of the SJFA to all regional secretaries in September 2010


8 September 2010

To: Regional Secretaries.

Dear Sirs

You will no doubt recall that at the Association's AGM I suggested that discussions / debate

take place at Regional General Meetings concerning a solution to the backlog of games at

the end of each season. Last season's spell of bad weather was, hopefully, exceptional but

did accentuate the problem. However, it is a perennial problem that needs attention.

I would respectfully suggest placing the following issues on your agendas might stimulate

discussions and possible solutions.

Curtailing the number of games.

Curtailing the number of competitions.

Should Superleague teams enter the Cup competitions from 2nd /3rd round.

Should the Scottish Junior Cup be decided over one game.

Change of season.

Whilst at one time 3 games a week over a period of time was acceptable, I feel that today

there is little appetite from players, committees, or fans for this.

I trust that your member clubs will welcome the opportunity to discuss these matters and I

welcome your eventual feedback.

Yours faithfully

T.A. Johnston

SECRETARY

The West region put this on the agenda for discussion at the general meeting of the clubs.
Below is the minutes from that meeting relating to the discussion.


WEST REGION of SCOTTISH JUNIOR F.A.

GENERAL MEETING - SEASON 2010/2011

30 September 2010

1. A discussion took place on a letter from the SJFA re suggested changes to avoid the fixture backlog.

Main Points raised and initial responses of the Delegates were:-

Curtailing the number of games - No Change

Curtailing the number of competitions - No Change

Should Super league teams enter Cup Competition's from round 2/3 - No Change

Should the Scottish Junior Cup be decided over one game - Some yes some no

Change of Season - No Change


As you can clearly see the CLUBS do not see any reason for change. As always there are pros and cons to both sides of the arguement, but it is the opinion of the clubs that count and they say - NO CHANGE.

Anyway I need to go my Big Wig is due out of the tumble dryer.

All fine and appears to be logical. What papers were submitted or prepared for any of these 'suggestions'? Do you commission any research on any of these? Or is it merely a 'hands up for summer football' approach?

Of course the technique here is when you get a question you don't want to deal with, you shove 20 other things on the agenda which you know are nonsense and will be knocked back. The good one dies with the others.

Given clubs are struggling the way they are, with the SJFA having had to chuck money at them last year to try to help some clubs survive , and the fact you are operating in a competitive market, what are the top 2 or 3 items on the list of solutions?

[thelegendthatis]

HTG, on 17 December 2011 - 21:54, said:

We do. We go to fvckin Benidorm or the Open or the test match or Wimbledon. We have The Marches and The Gala Day (Linlithgow and Bo'ness). We enjoy the World Cup, the Euros, the Olympics. We have barbeques, relax in the garden, have strolls around the loch. We do a fvckin' shedload of things in the summer when we can use the weather to our advantage. We finish the season and hand out the big prizes under radiant skies. We start pre-season training at the beginning of July. We use half of June and all of August to play junior football. Can you not see that the 5 or 6 weeks we have in the middle is a time to catch some rays, do something different, spend a bit of time with the family and build excitement at the signings for the new season or frustration at the lack of them.

It's not going to change. There are 10 things we should change about junior football before we decide that it's a good idea to have pre-season in January/February and close the season with a Scottish Cup final in the pishing rain in November.

Thought you closed the thread 2 posts earlier?

This post has been edited by thelegendthatis: 17 December 2011 - 22:09

[HTG]

thelegendthatis, on 17 December 2011 - 22:08, said:

Thought you closed the thread 2 posts earlier?

Just an aspiration Legend. I saw writing on walls within seconds!

[HTG]

Did you really edit that to change to your "Joe" smiley?

[thelegendthatis]

HTG, on 17 December 2011 - 22:14, said:

Did you really edit that to change to your "Joe" smiley?

Nope

[HibeeJibee]

So to sum-up the situation as it stands... there's a list of problems with summer football at Junior level as long as your arm; it's not workable at Senior level; it's insufficient enough of a problem for it to have even been raised at the national SJFA AGM.

It was rejected regionally by WR, the region with the worst backlogs, which also rejected more conservative solutions to backlogs (as Kennie listed; also e.g. using September holidays).

Despite all the protestations about financial catastrophe, no club is known to have folded during a bad winter in recent years.


This surely suggests the problem doesn't actually exist, in the eyes of those it's supposedly affecting... clubs.

[Kennie]

thelegendthatis, on 17 December 2011 - 22:07, said:

All fine and appears to be logical. What papers were submitted or prepared for any of these 'suggestions'? Do you commission any research on any of these? Or is it merely a 'hands up for summer football' approach?

Of course the technique here is when you get a question you don't want to deal with, you shove 20 other things on the agenda which you know are nonsense and will be knocked back. The good one dies with the others.

Given clubs are struggling the way they are, with the SJFA having had to chuck money at them last year to try to help some clubs survive , and the fact you are operating in a competitive market, what are the top 2 or 3 items on the list of solutions?

I don't know what more you want me to tell you.
As an SJFA "bigwig" I was at the meeting where it was discussed. We had a long discussion with differing views from the management members.
TJ is asked to circulate a letter.
Letter goes out to regional secretaries.
Letter again fully discussed at Regional level
Letter then forwarded to all clubs with instructions for them to discuss at club level and then come to the General meeting with ther thoughts and views.
DISCUSSION held at general meeting
Minutes of meeting state -
Main Points raised and initial responses of the Delegates were:-

Curtailing the number of games - No Change

Curtailing the number of competitions - No Change

Should Super league teams enter Cup Competition's from round 2/3 - No Change

Should the Scottish Junior Cup be decided over one game - Some yes some no

Change of Season - No Change
Please note use of words - Main points raised and initial responses.
Hardly a case of asking for a show of hands, for or against.

[thelegendthatis]

HibeeJibee, on 17 December 2011 - 22:32, said:

So to sum-up the situation as it stands... there's a list of problems with summer football at Junior level as long as your arm; it's not workable at Senior level; it's insufficient enough of a problem for it to have even been raised at the national SJFA AGM.

It was rejected regionally by WR, the region with the worst backlogs, which also rejected more conservative solutions to backlogs (as Kennie listed; also e.g. using September holidays).

Despite all the protestations about financial catastrophe, no club is known to have folded during a bad winter in recent years.


This surely suggests the problem doesn't actually exist, in the eyes of those it's supposedly affecting... clubs.

A significant number of junior clubs are insolvent and trading illegally.

This might explain what is happening.

The boiling frog story is a widespread anecdote describinga frog slowlybeing boiled alive. The premise isthat if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it isplaced in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger andwill be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for theinability of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually

[thelegendthatis]

Kennie, on 17 December 2011 - 22:44, said:

I don't know what more you want me to tell you.

What papers were submitted or prepared for any of these 'suggestions'? Do you commission any research on any of these?

[HTG]

thelegendthatis, on 17 December 2011 - 22:45, said:

A significant number of junior clubs are insolvent and trading illegally.

This might explain what is happening.

The boiling frog story is a widespread anecdote describinga frog slowlybeing boiled alive. The premise isthat if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it isplaced in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger andwill be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for theinability of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually

Oyf - this'll be good. Crack on HJ!!

[The Old Northerner]

thelegendthatis, on 17 December 2011 - 22:45, said:

A significant number of junior clubs are insolvent and trading illegally.

Any idea of the debt levels involved?

[thelegendthatis]

The Old Northerner, on 17 December 2011 - 22:54, said:

Any idea of the debt levels involved?

Per club or overall? Overall no idea. Specific clubs yes.

Best one had a shortfall of £90k. (or worst one)

[HibeeJibee]

HTG, on 17 December 2011 - 22:49, said:

Oyf - this'll be good. Crack on HJ!!

I don't really see the point?

We've now established not only that it's in essence unnecessary, unworkable and undesirable (in terms of the logistics of it)... but that the people who supposedly need it, do not want it, even having identified the alleged problem and considered the alleged solution.

Pro-summer brigade have hit rock-bottom when their retort is essentially "but committee men aren't intelligent enough to know what they want/need".

[HTG]

HibeeJibee, on 17 December 2011 - 23:00, said:

I don't really see the point?

We've now established not only that it's in essence unnecessary, unworkable and undesirable (in terms of the logistics of it)... but that the people who supposedly need it, do not want it, even having identified the alleged problem and considered the alleged solution.

Pro-summer brigade have hit rock-bottom when their retort is essentially "but committee men aren't intelligent enough to know what they want/need".

In the name of sport ...

[The Old Northerner]

thelegendthatis, on 17 December 2011 - 22:59, said:

Per club or overall? Overall no idea. Specific clubs yes.

So how many clubs make up the 'significant' number?

[Mr Tee]

HTG, yeh i got it, and i agree... You going to Benidorn is the perfect reason for not playing in the best conditions, and playing in the worst.

Nah i get the whole thing calm down!

[Mr Tee]

And out of interest, what did they come up with to deal with the fixture backlog??

[HTG]

Mr Tee, on 17 December 2011 - 23:04, said:

HTG, yeh i got it, and i agree... You going to Benidorn is the perfect reason for not playing in the best conditions, and playing in the worst.

Nah i get the whole thing calm down!

Phew!! Thank you!

For the avoidance of doubt, Benidorm is a generalisation. I've never been near the place. Is that where Sticky Vicky does her thing???

[KirkyRobRoy]

Mr Tee, on 17 December 2011 - 23:04, said:

HTG, yeh i got it, and i agree... You going to Benidorn is the perfect reason for not playing in the best conditions, and playing in the worst.

Nah i get the whole thing calm down!

I beg you.....

[HibeeJibee]

HTG, on 17 December 2011 - 23:02, said:

In the name of sport ...

It's only December, I'm pacing myself... in my 'big' first post I didn't even mention pitch maintanence, hard pitches, transition season, loans or Euros/WCs!! It's about the journey, not just the destination !!

[HTG]

Mr Tee, on 17 December 2011 - 23:05, said:

And out of interest, what did they come up with to deal with the fixture backlog??

Some clubs occasionally played 3 games a week. Very few had to do it and even fewer had to do it more than once. Bo'ness did and hell mend them. It actually worked for them - they played themselves from shite to decent after they lost to Talbot. That's another mental assumption - that players can't occasionally play a Saturday, Monday and Wednesday. They can when needed.

[Tynieness]

Mr Tee, on 17 December 2011 - 23:04, said:

HTG, yeh i got it, and i agree... You going to Benidorn is the perfect reason for not playing in the best conditions, and playing in the worst.

Nah i get the whole thing calm down!

HTG has never been too benidorm - with his deep pockets and small arms his ideal beach holiday is burnt island. the man is so tight that he dresses in gear that the rag and bone man wouldn't even dream of selling
Saying that he won a fortune today so maybe he will be shopping in oxfam tomorrow

[HTG]

Tynieness, on 17 December 2011 - 23:10, said:

HTG has never been too benidorm - with his deep pockets and small arms his ideal beach holiday is burnt island. the man is so tight that he dresses in gear that the rag and bone man wouldn't even dream of selling
Saying that he won a fortune today so maybe he will be shopping in oxfam tomorrow

Sssshhhhh. Don't tell everyone!!! 5/1 ... oan you go!!!

Eta - tosser!

This post has been edited by HTG: 17 December 2011 - 23:12

[HibeeJibee]

HTG, on 17 December 2011 - 23:10, said:

Some clubs occasionally played 3 games a week. Very few had to do it and even fewer had to do it more than once. Bo'ness did and hell mend them. It actually worked for them - they played themselves from shite to decent after they lost to Talbot. That's another mental assumption - that players can't occasionally play a Saturday, Monday and Wednesday. They can when needed.

Apoligies HTG, red-dotted that accidentally whilst aiming for the green!!