[santheman]

drs, on 30 January 2012 - 18:50, said:

Doesnt answer the questions I asked though does it.

I repeat -

what happens if a move to summer football sees crowds drop?

Do we go back to winter football?

Do you mean if the average goes down from 30 to 20 (which can be the norm in the lower leagues)

[Mr Tee]

How many games, on average would a junior club play per season? My local side is Bonnyrigg Rose, so 22 league games, plus cups. If they won them all, or went out in first round of everyone, how many games in total is that?

The arguement about holidays and other sports, for me, is not one that stacks up.

Its simply a matter of can it fit in timetable wise, thats all im asking!

[drs]

santheman, on 30 January 2012 - 19:07, said:

Do you mean if the average goes down from 30 to 20 (which can be the norm in the lower leagues)

Doesnt matter what the norm is - all the summer advocates seem to be sure that crowds will be better in the summe, but what if they arent? The crowds have gone down in Ireland when they moved to summer football.

[HibeeJibee]

Mr Tee, on 30 January 2012 - 20:45, said:

How many games, on average would a junior club play per season? My local side is Bonnyrigg Rose, so 22 league games, plus cups. If they won them all, or went out in first round of everyone, how many games in total is that?

Minimum would be 31:
... 22 league
... 6 sectional cup (group)
... 1 Junior Cup (R1)
... 1 EOS Cup (R1)
... 1 Fife & Lothians Cup (R1)

Maximum would be 57:
... 22 league
... 8 section cup (group > final)
... 16 Junior Cup (R1 > final with replays)
... 6 EOS Cup (R1 > final)
... 5? Fife & Lothians Cup (R1 > final)


Obviously that maximum could be a lot higher - e.g. if
[1] either of the 2 district cups were played, which is fairly rare now;
[2] you played in a lower-level division which had more league games;
[3] you were a Central or North district club, as they have an extra cup;
[4] you entered the Scottish Cup;
etc.

Similarly, the figures will vary somewhat in the other 2 regions.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 30 January 2012 - 21:11

[HibeeJibee]

drs, on 30 January 2012 - 21:07, said:

Doesnt matter what the norm is

It also seems to rather defeat the original premise of the argument.

If crowds falling wouldn't matter as 30 becoming 20 isn't a big deal... why is protecting crowds from alleged winter erosion a reason for summer football?


Even where crowds are larger... we've seen some club officials/stattos suggest their clubs get lower crowds in early June / August, and even moreso midweek.

And they fell in Ireland (despite the substantal tappable markets of GAA and rugby fans which don't exist here).

[Mr Tee]

HibeeJibee, on 30 January 2012 - 21:09, said:

Minimum would be 31:
... 22 league
... 6 sectional cup (group)
... 1 Junior Cup (R1)
... 1 EOS Cup (R1)
... 1 Fife & Lothians Cup (R1)

Maximum would be 57:
... 22 league
... 8 section cup (group > final)
... 16 Junior Cup (R1 > final with replays)
... 6 EOS Cup (R1 > final)
... 5? Fife & Lothians Cup (R1 > final)


Obviously that maximum could be a lot higher - e.g. if
[1] either of the 2 district cups were played, which is fairly rare now;
[2] you played in a lower-level division which had more league games;
[3] you were a Central or North district club, as they have an extra cup;
[4] you entered the Scottish Cup;
etc.

Similarly, the figures will vary somewhat in the other 2 regions.

Right a couple of things, league cup seemed to take a fir bit of flack from everyone did it not, so that could go, as could all cup replays. That means take away 16 from 57 means 41 games.

If you play from march onwards would you fit 41 games in then break Novc Dec Jan or something along those lines?

[JR Man]

drs, on 30 January 2012 - 21:07, said:

Doesnt matter what the norm is - all the summer advocates seem to be sure that crowds will be better in the summe, but what if they arent? The crowds have gone down in Ireland when they moved to summer football.

Would it not be worth trying to sort out a plan for it and try it on a 3 or 4 year trial because it can't be much worse than it already is then if it doesn't work at least we know and if it does well all the better

[HibeeJibee]

Mr Tee, on 30 January 2012 - 21:19, said:

Right a couple of things, league cup seemed to take a fir bit of flack from everyone did it not, so that could go, as could all cup replays. That means take away 16 from 57 means 41 games.

If you play from march onwards would you fit 41 games in then break Novc Dec Jan or something along those lines?

Scrapping 6 guaranteed games of 31, being the sectional tournament (which seems to be liked for preparation)... and the institution of Junior Cup replays... is quite radical.

Infact why not just do that and not change the season?

Further, if you start in March, you're having pre-season in January-February... and if you're ending in October or November, you're hoping it doesn't rain the last 2/3 months.

JR Man, on 30 January 2012 - 21:21, said:

Would it not be worth trying to sort out a plan for it and try it on a 3 or 4 year trial because it can't be much worse than it already is then if it doesn't work at least we know and if it does well all the better

"It can't be much worse than it already is" is pretty disputable, though.

And you don't trial anything and everything just because they exist. You only trial something if it looks like it would be workable and preferable.

[Mr Tee]

HibeeJibee, on 30 January 2012 - 21:31, said:

Scrapping 6 guaranteed games of 31, being the sectional tournament (which seems to be liked for preparation)... and the institution of Junior Cup replays... is quite radical.

Infact why not just do that and not change the season?

Further, if you start in March, you're having pre-season in January-February... and if you're ending in October or November, you're hoping it doesn't rain the last 2/3 months.

But this is something that in practical terms would perhaps work though? cut the games to a managable amount, and limit(never going to totally eliminate..) the risk of call offs buy playing in what is statistically the better periods of weather. Add to that no replays in the Scottish (or even allow replays from the last 32/16 only??)

I am far from an expert on it, just wondering!

[Deanburn Dave]

HibeeJibee, on 30 January 2012 - 21:09, said:

Maximum would be 57:
... 22 league
... 8 section cup (group > final)
... 16 Junior Cup (R1 > final with replays)
... 6 EOS Cup (R1 > final)
... 5? Fife & Lothians Cup (R1 > final)

I was at 51 Bo'ness United games last season which included three games in the Big Scottish. Is that too much Fitbae.........NO. Although it's fair to say that at the end of the season when there were about eight games in 18 days you could tell the players were suffering. Worth it in the end though.

[HibeeJibee]

Mr Tee, on 30 January 2012 - 21:38, said:

But this is something that in practical terms would perhaps work though? cut the games to a managable amount, and limit(never going to totally eliminate..) the risk of call offs buy playing in what is statistically the better periods of weather.

I am far from an expert on it, just wondering!

Well yes: I mean, on paper you could hack-back the number of games club play so far you reached a stage where you could: [1] avoid having to play intensive midweeks across the summer, and [2] finish in August/September, having started in late March.

But you clearly pass a threshold whereby the amount you're cutting (in games and months), to make summer football workable, is surely eradicating the (supposed) benefits of the change. Eliminating gates, sponsorship, silverware opportunities, etc. etc.

You also approach a stage whereby, if you're cutting that much, you'd be as well just stick playing August-May with regular stops.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 30 January 2012 - 21:54

[Mr Tee]

HibeeJibee, on 30 January 2012 - 21:49, said:

Well yes: I mean, on paper you could hack-back the number of games club play till you reached a stage where you could: [1] avoid having to play intensive midweeks across the summer, and [2] finish in August or September, having started in late March.

But you reach a stage whereby the amount you're cutting (in games and months), to make summer football workable, is surely eliminating the supposed benefits of the change.

You also approach a stage whereby, if you're cutting that much, you'd be as well just stick playing August-May with regular stops.

Yes i accept that, but the point im making is that all the points individually could be ironed out or made to work by far brighter men than I.

So the arguement that "it cant work" is as off the mark as the view that junior football is dying on its feet and one more bad winter will fold a thousand clubs, agreed?

My own view is that quite simply people dont mind it the way it is and dont want change. Its reasonable value for money with a strong history and loyal core of support. The shift would be so huge its hard to even begin to imagine it.

But maybe if we thought long and hard about it, it could be a much more attractive, higher quality supporter friendly product.

However, it will never change anyway.

[HibeeJibee]

Mr Tee, on 30 January 2012 - 22:03, said:

Yes i accept that, but the point im making is that all the points individually could be ironed out or made to work by far brighter men than I.

So the arguement that "it cant work" is as off the mark as the view that junior football is dying on its feet and one more bad winter will fold a thousand clubs, agreed?

Well while I see where you're coming from, no, I wouldn't really agree. I think that level of cut in games, tradition and season length (barely half a year) is so significant as to itself become unrealistic. And I've never been of a school-of-thought that any problem can always be ironed-out, nor that felt people (or clubs) should require outside intervention.

I remain unconvinced that summer football works, or is optimum, and I support the democratic right of clubs to self-determination in any case.

But even before we reach that stage, I feel that if things really were so bad, clubs should (and would) be adopting gentler and less radical alleviations first.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 30 January 2012 - 22:23

[thelegendthatis]

Will ANY games be on tomorrow?

Know some clubs are leaving pitch inspections until 11am in the hope........even if on, it will be VERY cold so suspect crowds will be done somewhat.

[santheman]

HibeeJibee, on 30 January 2012 - 22:18, said:

Well while I see where you're coming from, no, I wouldn't really agree. I think that level of cut in games, tradition and season length (barely half a year) is so significant as to itself become unrealistic. And I've never been of a school-of-thought that any problem can always be ironed-out, nor that felt people (or clubs) should require outside intervention.

I remain unconvinced that summer football works, or is optimum, and I support the democratic right of clubs to self-determination in any case.

But even before we reach that stage, I feel that if things really were so bad, clubs should (and would) be adopting gentler and less radical alleviations first.

As a fan it boils down to this for me at least

Do I want to watch football being played in the best conditions possible YES
Do I want to see my team playing on a weekly basis YES
Do I want to go 2/3/4 months without seeing a game NO

I don't really care if all that can be achieved in Summer Winter Spring or Fall as it can be as nice watching a game on a crisp winters day as much as a warm summers evening.
However its beginning to look like achieving all 3 in the current scheme of things is not going to be possible in the Juniors so some kind of change I think is inevitable (unless the weather patterns of the last few years change dramatically).
I appreciate the technical difficulties involved in any change to the season and maybe there is no answer to them. If thats the case then things will go on as they are and I can at least look forward to loads of midweek games and watch my Senior team from November to March .

[HibeeJibee]

If things were to continue getting worse, and became so every season and for years and years on end, then it's a different ballgame in certain respects short of March-November football.

You would surely see a desire from clubs, to do many of the little things they currently won't... like playing on September holiday weekends, using floodlights to the full extent (how many bounce games have been held in the last few midweeks?), scrapping or at least reducing the Sectional Cup period, and getting the Junior Cup out of midwinter where it causes so much carnage. The latter would be useful in terms of the winter anyway... playing local cup-ties, or league games, allows later inspections; reversals where clubs are not too far apart; and not continually trying Junior Cup ties avoids this headache of a particularly bad pitch disrupting weeks of play. Perhaps they'd consider a defined mid-season break, albeit that has its problem.

I wouldn't rule-out a significant increase in 3G pitches either - particularly in the second half of the decade, should fiscal austerity have eased somewhat. Mark Wotte, SFA Performance Director, was in the paper last week saying Scotland has 300-400 such pitches but should have 3,000. There's been a significant increase even in the last ~4 years.

What I don't see is the Junior season being swung on its axis to run March-November. There are far too many problems - in terms of the pre-season, and the run-in; the availability and maintanence of parks; the undesirability of summer holidays/alternative leisure clashes; and technical aspects like transfer periods/Scottish Cup qualification/cup finals/etc.

[thelegendthatis]

HibeeJibee, on 03 February 2012 - 17:25, said:

I wouldn't rule-out a significant increase in 3G pitches either - particularly in the second half of the decade, should fiscal austerity have eased somewhat. Mark Wotte, SFA Performance Director, was in the paper last week saying Scotland has 300-400 such pitches but should have 3,000. There's been a significant increase even in the last ~4 years.

Not sure what "I wouldn't rule out" actually means.

However the only way in which junior clubs can get 3/4G pitches in through spending their own money.

Otherwise they have to open their doors to wider community use to attract external funding. This is NOT the same as becoming a Community Club as defined by the SFA.

Those junior clubs who have 3G pitches have either already opened the doors, or are tenants paying rent to the local council.

And of course some Councils are now keen to get rid of the sports facilities they have as they can't afford to run and maintain them any longer. Great opportunity for some clubs.

[Captain Neutral]

The better utilization of all-weather facilities is the way ahead for Junior football. Not as a single, silver bullet or as a requirement for every club - financially that is never going to happen - but as a bureaucratic solution to the loss of conventional parks to inclement weather. With the increasing numbers of these facilities, is it not beyond the wit of the powers-that-be to designate regional grounds where fixture pressure could be released, either by playing multiple games on a Saturday or hosting midweek ties? Broxburn and Petershill immediately spring to mind as perfect examples of hosting solutions. As has been mentioned before in this forum, how many times have clubs hastily rearranged friendlies on all-weather parks when their own is deemed unplayable? The priority should always be honouring League and Cup matches.

Keeping the Junior Cup on-track should be a priority, and at this time of year it is usually this competition that suffers the most. And it's supposed to be the jewel in the Juniors' crown! We should be thankful that Emirates have stuck around so long, as the fixture shambles that traditionally ensues would have other sponsors heading for the door. We do have a real prospect of round five ties being delayed due to round four being incomplete, and how inept does it look when it's "Team F or Team Z versus Team R or Team Q" at the Hampden cup draw?

I'm for summer football, but the sea-change in attitudes required in the Junior game may be too large to expect. By getting games played - albeit maybe not on your home turf - credibility could be restored with the premier competition keeping to its timetable, and leagues properly reflecting the season-long efforts of clubs and not an indication of their season-end stamina as they cram in multiple fixtures.

Following on from HibeeJibee's post about Mark Wotte, if the genuine desire of the Olympics is to leave a legacy, it should be in the form of better and more effective sports facilities. The answer is there. It's artificial. But it would work for Junior football.

[drs]

...who pays though?

It costs circa £200k for an artificial pitch, cant see there being a single Junior club who could afford that without some sort of help. Help that which in the current financial climate aint likely to be forthcoming.

[Captain Neutral]

Sorry DRS. You miss my point. Clubs would have no requirement to change their own set-up.

What I suggest is an SJFA-led initiative that would see ties played at an 'emergency' designated regional venue. For example, Team West v Team East have failed to get their Cup tie played, say two times, and it's two weeks to the next round. This would trigger a move to a neutral all-weather venue in the West, still allowing a form of home advantage. How it is financed and the revenue divided is for others more experienced and knowledgeable than me. At least clubs, supporters, the media and sponsors can see a definitive solution to fixture headaches.

I know some troglodyte will come back with "Aye, but what if the all-weather park's unplayable…?". Yes, and what if the sky falls in or the moon decides to leave earth's orbit? There will always be "Aye beens" who contribute nothing to finding solutions. This is my workable tuppence-worth. Anybody else have more constructive ideas to manipulate the status quo?

[HibeeJibee]

It would certainly help with Junior Cup ties that had been postponed X times... although getting the cup out of midwinter in the first place would be a big help. Currently there's a '3 strikes' rule anyway?

[fms]

The Old Northerner, on 30 January 2012 - 13:03, said:

If you're not reliant on gate income to pay players or you don't pay players then it's not even a question. I'd guess that most Junior clubs would fall into one of these two categories

That is a very salient point Old Northerner. A large % of our clubs are not relient on gate money or paying semi-pro players. Would the game be better at junior level if they parted ways?
If in any of the arguments against Summer Football, can explain to me what bloody pleasure there is on days like this, or the past three years (at least) experience of Scotland November to March, with fixtures 70/80% abandoned. It is ludicrous not to move on to summer where a balanced programme could be maintained. Where the constant game on/off does not arise or at worst is a very occasional occurance.
We used to be an innovitive organisation but as the game is demolished before our faces we sit and do not a bliddy thing.

This post has been edited by fms: 04 February 2012 - 12:34