[paddymcp]

Supras, on 30 November 2011 - 00:46, said:

That raises an interesting point, what was a worse purchase Bebo or Bebe?

Both horrific for AOL and Man Utd. These are the kind of questions that need to be asked.

haha my bad. Both equally as bad though.

[J_Stewart]

There are some utterly ridiculous staements in this thread, nice to see the old "it's my opinion so it can't be wrong" statements being used as well, eh, it certainly can be wrong, and in this instance a lot of them are.

Darren Fletcher is our best player by a distance, and has been since Ferguson was banished, probably for a good bit before then as well in fact. His passing, vision, ball-retention and crossing are comfortably as good as his work-rate, pressing and tackling. The problem for Fletcher (note, "for" not "with") is that with Scotland he is - bar Charlie Adam - playing with team mates that are not at his level and therefore not on the same wave-length, while they also provide inferior movement at a slower pace than his Man United team-mates, and as a central midfielder - where the role entails retention and regaining of possession while creating the odd chance - this makes his job a great deal more difficult and yet he is constantly one of, if not our best performer.

If Darren Fletcher hadn't started his career at Man U (but for arguments sake had devloped in exactly the same way he has) and had done so at a mid-table club, there's not a Scotland supporter going that wouldn't be raving about how good he was. The simple fact is that "Darren Fletcher, Manchester United midfielder" unfairly raises people's expectations to a level he couldn't possibly reach playing within the current Scotland squad.

[Dindeleux]

paddymcp, on 29 November 2011 - 04:47, said:

Would he be? Does the team he play for overcloud and exaggerate his actual ability? I think so.

He's a decent player and hard grafter but not nearly as good as most think.

You appear to be talking about Scott Brown here

[Dindeleux]

H_B, on 29 November 2011 - 07:10, said:

Look at Nicky Butt after he left Man U - looked really ordinary. Or even the likes of O'Shea and Wes Brown, who looked decent in that team, but have struggled afterwards.

All 3 of these players would walk into the Scotland team - so you have disproved your own point.

[korphaeron]

I see Fletcher being United captain within the next couple of years.

[voice of harold]

Dindeleux, on 01 December 2011 - 19:21, said:

All 3 of these players would walk into the Scotland team - so you have disproved your own point.

Nicky butt wouldn't get a game for Scotland at his prime.

Fletcher
Brown
Dorrans
Adam

without question better.

Perhaps even Morrison and bannan?

[FC_1919]

voice of harold, on 01 December 2011 - 21:48, said:

Nicky butt wouldn't get a game for Scotland at his prime.

Fletcher
Brown
Dorrans
Adam

without question better.

Perhaps even Morrison and bannan?

^Perthshire.

[Uncle Psychosis]

paddymcp, on 30 November 2011 - 00:18, said:

Its a game of opinions. I dont care what Alky nose thinks. He also thought Bebo was worth 7million despite looking like he doesn't belong on a football field.

...and very quickly realised he'd made a mistake---Bebe's played, what, a dozen games for Man Utd?

Fletcher has hundreds of appearances for Man Utd. Hundreds of appearances under one of the most successful managers of all time. He's got several premier league medals, a champions league medal, and God knows what other honours.

But right enough, he's a terrible player

[H_B]

Dindeleux, on 01 December 2011 - 19:21, said:

All 3 of these players would walk into the Scotland team - so you have disproved your own point.

Well, yes, exactly. that was my point

It's not that Darren Fletcher isn't a good player. He is Scotland's best player. It's that playing with Manchester United makes him look better.

Paul Lambert went from being a decent Motherwell midfielder to a Champions League winner in what, 4 seasons, then back to Celtic where he looked OK again.

Was Paul Lambert a superstar? No

Was he a good player? Yes.

He found a niche in a very good team and performed a valuable role as a defensive midfielder. His career was defined by being picked up by Dortmund at a good time and doing an excellent job in a team where he was asked to do a basic job and let the good players play. Much like Darren Fletcher at Man Utd.

[woof!]

What people fail to understand is that lesser players would constantly lose the ball playing for Man Utd. The tempo they play at is beyond most players - regardless of their role in the team.

[LAGer]

This Fletcher argument seems to crop up every now and again and it can be quite frustrating.

There are plenty who just don't see his contribution to the team and there are even more who reckon because he plays for Man Utd he should be contributing more, such as more goals, more technical brilliance and a bit more flair.

My opinion is that he is Scotland's best player by quite a distance. He may not be the classiest and he might not possess the flair you'd associate with Man Utd players past and present, but it still stands that he plays a vital role for both club and country. It's not his fault that Scotland don't have the quality round about him that Man Utd do. He's one of a very few Scotland players playing for a top side and yet continues to give his all each game and turn up for the "meaningless" friendlies.

[H_B]

woof!, on 02 December 2011 - 10:10, said:

What people fail to understand is that lesser players would constantly lose the ball playing for Man Utd. The tempo they play at is beyond most players - regardless of their role in the team.

Did Paul Lambert "constantly lose the ball" playing for that excellent Borussia Dortmund side?

Fletcher would find it much more difficult to keep the ball and pass it playing for Sunderland. He'd be under a lot more pressure and would have far fewer options around him.

[thisal]

H_B, on 02 December 2011 - 09:04, said:

Well, yes, exactly. that was my point

It's not that Darren Fletcher isn't a good player. He is Scotland's best player. It's that playing with Manchester United makes him look better.

Paul Lambert went from being a decent Motherwell midfielder to a Champions League winner in what, 4 seasons, then back to Celtic where he looked OK again.

Was Paul Lambert a superstar? No

Was he a good player? Yes.

He found a niche in a very good team and performed a valuable role as a defensive midfielder. His career was defined by being picked up by Dortmund at a good time and doing an excellent job in a team where he was asked to do a basic job and let the good players play. Much like Darren Fletcher at Man Utd.

Paul Lambert played for St Mirren when they won the cup for the first time in 28 years. Transfered to Motherwell where they finished runners up their best finish in in the last 80 years. Transfered to Dortmund wins Champions league, where he took time out of his basic task of marking Zidane to set up the first goal. ( Still their only win). Transfered to Celtic where they stopped Rangers record equalling 9 in a row. Reached their only European final in the last 40 years. Internationally he was part of the last Scottish team to reach the finals of a major tournament. I think Paul Lambert was a bit more than "ok" or was he just lucky to sign for these teams just before their best sesons in most people on heres lifetime?

[H_B]

thisal, on 02 December 2011 - 12:21, said:

I think Paul Lambert was a bit more than "ok" or was he just lucky to sign for these teams just before their best sesons in most people on heres lifetime?

It's all relative. Paul Lambert was a very good footballer. I think it's fair to say he amazed almost everyone by transferring from Motherwell to Dortmund. The consensus at the time was that he had done brilliantly to get that move. I certainly don't remember St Mirren and Motherwell fans at the time predicting greatness or even that he would have a chance of being a starter for them.

And if you want to be complete, he transferred to Celtic under John Barnes, and was part of the side that were arsewhipped by Rangers that season before O'Neill arrived. I think their success at preventing 10 in a row might just have had more to do with a dreadlocked Swede incidentally

So, just to check - are you saying Paul Lambert was a superstar? Really?

What about Neil Lennon? Superstar or good player?

[FC_1919]

H_B, on 02 December 2011 - 13:13, said:

It's all relative. Paul Lambert was a very good footballer. I think it's fair to say he amazed almost everyone by transferring from Motherwell to Dortmund. The consensus at the time was that he had done brilliantly to get that move. I certainly don't remember St Mirren and Motherwell fans at the time predicting greatness or even that he would have a chance of being a starter for them.

And if you want to be complete, he transferred to Celtic under John Barnes, and was part of the side that were arsewhipped by Rangers that season before O'Neill arrived. I think their success at preventing 10 in a row might just have had more to do with a dreadlocked Swede incidentally

So, just to check - are you saying Paul Lambert was a superstar? Really?

What about Neil Lennon? Superstar or good player?

Did Wim Jansen not stop 10 in a row the year before the Barnes/Dalgliesh dreamteam?

This post has been edited by FC_1919: 02 December 2011 - 13:24

[banterman86]

H_B, on 02 December 2011 - 13:13, said:

And if you want to be complete, he transferred to Celtic under John Barnes, and was part of the side that were arsewhipped by Rangers that season before O'Neill arrived. I think their success at preventing 10 in a row might just have had more to do with a dreadlocked Swede incidentally

Nopes, Wim Jansen signed him the season follwoing Dortmund's CL win - which is a bit mad when you think about it - and he was isnatntly a ky player, protecting a Celtic defence which, although improved by the signing of Marc reiper - had been pourous for years.

he also gave a platfrom for Craig burley to probably have the best season of his career. Seriously, Burley was great that year, a proper box to box midfielder.

Lambert also scored a thumper in the new year Old Firm game that season, which perhaps was the begininng of the tide turning.

Larrson had an excellent season that year of course,but it was under Venglos the next year taht he really looked like he was a cut above every one else.It was actually Jackie McNamara who won all the awards - as a right midfielder. Larrson;s great success that season was how much he got out of three strike partners - Darren jackon, Simon Donnelly and Harald brattbakk. Tommy Johnson was probably kicking about as well.

I loved Lambert at Celtic, much preferred him to Lennon, and that Jansen team was pretty good.

[Jordo1872]

H_B, on 02 December 2011 - 13:13, said:

It's all relative. Paul Lambert was a very good footballer. I think it's fair to say he amazed almost everyone by transferring from Motherwell to Dortmund. The consensus at the time was that he had done brilliantly to get that move. I certainly don't remember St Mirren and Motherwell fans at the time predicting greatness or even that he would have a chance of being a starter for them.

And if you want to be complete, he transferred to Celtic under John Barnes, and was part of the side that were arsewhipped by Rangers that season before O'Neill arrived. I think their success at preventing 10 in a row might just have had more to do with a dreadlocked Swede incidentally

So, just to check - are you saying Paul Lambert was a superstar? Really?

What about Neil Lennon? Superstar or good player?

What a ridiculous counter arguement. "It's all relative" well yes but the fact remains that Paul Lambert succeeded at various clubs on a very high level. Where did the original poster stated that he was a superstar? Define superstar?

Did Neil Lennon win the European Cup? List the clubs he played for and compare their status to that of clubs like Dortmund. Completely irrelevant comparison.

As for Fletcher, it amazes me how little fellow supporters know about the game. People expect fletcher to be scoring goals for Scotland because he plays for Man Utd when the reality is that it's not his role. I watch him in Lichtenstein and he was magnificent, coming short for almost every ball, taking it at feet and playing it forward or out wide before moving off, dragging an opponent with him, before ultimately picking up the ball again. He dictated our play that night, yet I got home a few days later and because we'd "only" won 1-0 I had a comment from a wok colleague along the lines of "It's about time Fletcher chipped in with goals for scotland". That, right there, is a comment from someone who watches football on tv and judges a players ability on how many goals he scores. Fletcher is an outstanding player and anyone who things otherwise is simply wrong.

[thisal]

H_B, on 02 December 2011 - 13:13, said:

It's all relative. Paul Lambert was a very good footballer. I think it's fair to say he amazed almost everyone by transferring from Motherwell to Dortmund. The consensus at the time was that he had done brilliantly to get that move. I certainly don't remember St Mirren and Motherwell fans at the time predicting greatness or even that he would have a chance of being a starter for them.

And if you want to be complete, he transferred to Celtic under John Barnes, and was part of the side that were arsewhipped by Rangers that season before O'Neill arrived. I think their success at preventing 10 in a row might just have had more to do with a dreadlocked Swede incidentally

So, just to check - are you saying Paul Lambert was a superstar? Really?

What about Neil Lennon? Superstar or good player?

I've read back... no I didn't say that. I said he was better than OK a lot better. Like Fletcher good enough for a Champions Leugue winning team.
Lambert was NOT signed by Barnes he was actually signed by Wim Jansen after Larssen. He was sub in his 1st game which they lost to Rangers putting them 3rd in the league. Larsson was still not fully accepted at Parkhead after a poor start. But by the end of the season they won the league and Larsson was a hero. Go figure.

[H_B]

thisal, on 02 December 2011 - 14:01, said:

I've read back... no I didn't say that. I said he was better than OK a lot better. Like Fletcher good enough for a Champions Leugue winning team.

Is/was Djimi Traore "a lot better than OK"?

[H_B]

Jordo1872, on 02 December 2011 - 13:50, said:

Did Neil Lennon win the European Cup? List the clubs he played for and compare their status to that of clubs like Dortmund. Completely irrelevant comparison.

Err, no it isn't. I actually think Lennon was a better player than Lambert incidentally. Neil Lennon was much underrated.

Your comparison is utterly ludicrous incidentally. Djimi Traore has a CL winners medal. Ashley Cole doesn't. So, is Djimi the better left back?

Quote

As for Fletcher, it amazes me how little fellow supporters know about the game.

Oh here we go.

I love this argument. It's always, without question, purported by utter arseholes.

Quote

People expect fletcher to be scoring goals for Scotland because he plays for Man Utd

Really? Who has said this.

[thisal]

H_B, on 02 December 2011 - 14:56, said:

Is/was Djimi Traore "a lot better than OK"?

No idea can't say I remember much about him, I take it you mention him because you think he's the worst player to win the Champions league. I don't think Lambert is anywhere near that. Do you? All I said was Lambert was a lot better than just ok as you described him. You then babbled on about superstars, John Barnes and now Jimmy Traore ffs. I have now lost interest in your opinion.

[Aufc]

Fletcher is a good player. Ferguson obviously likes him. He is scotlands best player. However, in the grand scheme of things, he is no where near world class. He looks good within the Man utd team. Not to do him a disservice but its much easier to look good when you have the likes of Ronaldo, nani and rooney making runs for you compared with kenny miller, steven naismith and barry robson.

People expect him to re-create his man utd performances for Scotland. However, it will never happen due to the players around him. I kind of feel sorry for him when he plays for Scotland. When he gets the ball for man utd he has various runners and he will basically know where to hit the ball. With scotland he gets the ball and no one is in space. He delays the pass and gets tackled and then the morons in the crowd shout at him and blame him.

Playing within the man utd team definately makes him look a better player than he is but he is crucial for Scotland. And he always turns up which makes him AWRITE in my eyes.

[thisal]

Aufc, on 02 December 2011 - 16:18, said:

Fletcher is a good player. Ferguson obviously likes him. He is scotlands best player. However, in the grand scheme of things, he is no where near world class. He looks good within the Man utd team. Not to do him a disservice but its much easier to look good when you have the likes of Ronaldo, nani and rooney making runs for you compared with kenny miller, steven naismith and barry robson.

People expect him to re-create his man utd performances for Scotland. However, it will never happen due to the players around him. I kind of feel sorry for him when he plays for Scotland. When he gets the ball for man utd he has various runners and he will basically know where to hit the ball. With scotland he gets the ball and no one is in space. He delays the pass and gets tackled and then the morons in the crowd shout at him and blame him.

Playing within the man utd team definately makes him look a better player than he is but he is crucial for Scotland. And he always turns up which makes him AWRITE in my eyes.

It could also be said that Miller is at his best playing for Scotland. where it just so happens Fletcher is supplying him.

[DC92]

Djimi Traore only had two seasons where he played with any kind of regularity for Liverpool before he was moved on. They finished a poor fifth in both these seasons (although yes, they won the CL in one of them). Darren Fletcher has been a regular for Man U for years while they've won several trophies and is one of their first choice CMs (if not first choice). There isn't really a comparison.

[Grant228]

paddymcp, on 29 November 2011 - 20:13, said:

I'm not interested in some falacy of a percentage. I say what i see and he's not an accomplished passer of the ball.

You clearly rate Fletcher highly, i evidently don't - sorted.

Team: Celtic





Move along folks, nothing to see here...