[Lex]

Congratulations to the Republic on a superb and well deserved result tonight (4 nil win in Estonia ), one which puts them in their second major tournament of the century. An impressive achievement for a country of their size and one which rightly makes nations like ourselves green with envy.

Let's compare them with ourselves to see if we can learn any lessons. Ireland has a population of 4.5 million, approximatley 700,000 less than Scotland. Football is not their number one specator sport, with hurling and gallic football drawing far bigger attendances than their domestic football league. Rugby Union is also a huge draw for young athletes in the Republic. The LOI is part time, poorly attended and poorly funded.

Scotland on the other hand, does not enjoy such sporting diversity. Here it is pretty much football, football, some posh rugby kids in Edinburgh, then more football. Our domestic game has wall to wall coverage on every conceivable media outlet and is one of the best attended leagues per capita in the world. The SFA ploughs millions into youth development every single year and all of our SPL clubs spend admirably on Pro Youth Programmes.

So to simplify, Ireland has a smaller population than Scotland and a smaller percentage of their population has football as its chosen sport. They also invest far less money in developing their young players than we do. Why on earth is their national side consisently better than ours then?

Let's have a look at the latest squads for some clues. Irelands provisional squad for the Play Off against Estonia

Given (Aston Villa), Westwood (Sunderland), Forde (Milwall); O'Shea (Sunderland), Kelly (Fulham), Ward (Wolves), Dunne (Villa), St Ledger (Leicester), O'Dea (Leeds), McShane (Hull); Whelan (Stoke), McCarthy (Wigan), Coleman (Everton), Andrews (Ipswich), Fahey (Birmingham), Gibson (Man Utd), Keogh (Leeds), Duff (Fulham), McGeady (Spartak Moscow), Hunt (Wolves), Lawrence (Portsmouth); Keane (LA Galaxy), Doyle (Wolves), Long (West Brom), Cox (West Brom), Walters (Stoke).

Leon Best ( currently playing regauarly for 3rd in the EPL ) never made the inital cut but was later added to the squad after Shane Long withdrew, so including him, 27 players. 25 who play either in the EPL or the Championship, 1 who has just joined the MLS and 1 who plays in Russia. 24 of their players were playing in England when they turned 20, the exceptions being Darren O'Dea, 3rd choice keeper Forde and our very own Aiden McGeady.

Our original squad for the Cyprus game:

Allan McGregor (Rangers), David Marshall (Cardiff City), Matt Gilks (Blackpool) Phil Bardsley (Sunderland), Christophe Berra (Wolverhampton Wanderers), Gary Caldwell (Wigan Athletic), Grant Hanley (Blackburn Rovers), Alan Hutton (Aston Villa), Russell Martin (Norwich City), Lee Wallace (Rangers), Steven Whittaker (Rangers) Charlie Adam (Liverpool), Don Cowie (Cardiff City), Graham Dorrans (West Bromwich Albion), Darren Fletcher (Manchester United), James McArthur (Wigan Athletic), James Morrison (West Bromwich Albion), Barry Robson (Middlesbrough), Robert Snodgrass (Leeds United) David Goodwillie (Blackburn Rovers), Craig Mackail-Smith (Brighton and Hove Albion), Jamie Mackie (Queens Park Rangers), Kenny Miller (Cardiff City), Jordan Rhodes (Huddersfield Town)

Let's add the injured Naismith, Brown, and Bad Boy Bannan to make 27. That makes it 21 players from the EPL or Championship. 5 players from the SPL and 1 from League 1. Worse than, but not too disimilar from the ROI.

The key stat for me is also the one with the biggest differential. It's where the players were playing when they turned 20. Compared to 24/27 playing in England at that age from the ROI team, only 10/27 of our squad were: Gilks, Bardsley, Hanley, Fletcher, Morrison, Mackie, Rhodes, Martin, Mackail-Smith and Bannan.

What can we conclude from this then?

I conclude that the fact we have a stronger domestic league than Ireland is actually hindering our national team as opposed to enhancing it. It's a case in point. In Ireland, due to the low standard of youth development and domestic football any player with a half ounce of talent will go to England at a very early age. There he will come up against a higher standard of opposition, receive a better standard of coaching and become a stronger player for it.

Not here, our players invariably go to Scottish Clubs and stay with them. They will be tested against a lower standard opposition and the coaching, although good is clearly not up to EPL standards. They will then go to England later, if at all, where they will find themselves invariably behind their Irish counterparts who have been in the English system since their early teens. Is it a coincidence that two of our best players ( Fletcher and Bannan ) have never played for a Scottish team?

Can we solve this? Possibly.

Our domestic game is clearly getting weaker and this, using Irelands model, will be better for our national team. There will be more Darren Fletchers and Barry Bannans who can see the big picture and reject the advances of the Old Firm and get themselves to England at an early age. We have the strongest and richest league in the world on our doorstep and the more of our young players who take advantage of this the better our national team will be.

I can envisage a Scotland squad in the very near future which contains no Scottish based players at all ( the latest one included 3/24) and this is excellent for our future chances. The Irish have proved it works and it will work for us aswell. So let's celebrate the weakening of our domestic game with the knowledge that it's making our national team stronger.

The futures bright, the future's Anglo based Scots!


Yes I know I have too much time on my hands!

[Captain_Sensible]

Ireland's most successful era was under Jack Charlton when they played the long ball game.

Norway's most successful era also came with the long ball game.

If we want to be successful in international football we need to stop trying to copy the likes of Spain and startig playing the long ball.

[HibeeJibee]

Ultimately, there are so many factors which decide whether a country qualifies for a finals or not... I think it's always slightly tortuous to draw too much from one campaign, or via comparing 2 countries.

However, you're certainly right that the lowly status of football in Eire sees aspiring professionals leave for England whilst still youths.

Equally, though, Northern Ireland (and Wales) are in the same boat as Eire - but they're hardly doing well.

[greenockraver]

Lex, on 11 November 2011 - 23:01, said:

Congratulations to the Republic on a superb and well deserved result tonight (4 nil win in Estonia ), one which puts them in their second major tournament of the century. An impressive achievement for a country of their size and one which rightly makes nations like ourselves green with envy.

Let's compare them with ourselves to see if we can learn any lessons. Ireland has a population of 4.5 million, approximatley 700,000 less than Scotland. Football is not their number one specator sport, with hurling and gallic football drawing far bigger attendances than their domestic football league. Rugby Union is also a huge draw for young athletes in the Republic. The LOI is part time, poorly attended and poorly funded.

Scotland on the other hand, does not enjoy such sporting diversity. Here it is pretty much football, football, some posh rugby kids in Edinburgh, then more football. Our domestic game has wall to wall coverage on every conceivable media outlet and is one of the best attended leagues per capita in the world. The SFA ploughs millions into youth development every single year and all of our SPL clubs spend admirably on Pro Youth Programmes.

So to simplify, Ireland has a smaller population than Scotland and a smaller percentage of their population has football as its chosen sport. They also invest far less money in developing their young players than we do. Why on earth is their national side consisently better than ours then?

Let's have a look at the latest squads for some clues. Irelands provisional squad for the Play Off against Estonia

Given (Aston Villa), Westwood (Sunderland), Forde (Milwall); O'Shea (Sunderland), Kelly (Fulham), Ward (Wolves), Dunne (Villa), St Ledger (Leicester), O'Dea (Leeds), McShane (Hull); Whelan (Stoke), McCarthy (Wigan), Coleman (Everton), Andrews (Ipswich), Fahey (Birmingham), Gibson (Man Utd), Keogh (Leeds), Duff (Fulham), McGeady (Spartak Moscow), Hunt (Wolves), Lawrence (Portsmouth); Keane (LA Galaxy), Doyle (Wolves), Long (West Brom), Cox (West Brom), Walters (Stoke).

Leon Best ( currently playing regauarly for 3rd in the EPL ) never made the inital cut but was later added to the squad after Shane Long withdrew, so including him, 27 players. 25 who play either in the EPL or the Championship, 1 who has just joined the MLS and 1 who plays in Russia. 24 of their players were playing in England when they turned 20, the exceptions being Darren O'Dea, 3rd choice keeper Forde and our very own Aiden McGeady.

Our original squad for the Cyprus game:

Allan McGregor (Rangers), David Marshall (Cardiff City), Matt Gilks (Blackpool) Phil Bardsley (Sunderland), Christophe Berra (Wolverhampton Wanderers), Gary Caldwell (Wigan Athletic), Grant Hanley (Blackburn Rovers), Alan Hutton (Aston Villa), Russell Martin (Norwich City), Lee Wallace (Rangers), Steven Whittaker (Rangers) Charlie Adam (Liverpool), Don Cowie (Cardiff City), Graham Dorrans (West Bromwich Albion), Darren Fletcher (Manchester United), James McArthur (Wigan Athletic), James Morrison (West Bromwich Albion), Barry Robson (Middlesbrough), Robert Snodgrass (Leeds United) David Goodwillie (Blackburn Rovers), Craig Mackail-Smith (Brighton and Hove Albion), Jamie Mackie (Queens Park Rangers), Kenny Miller (Cardiff City), Jordan Rhodes (Huddersfield Town)

Let's add the injured Naismith, Brown, and Bad Boy Bannan to make 27. That makes it 21 players from the EPL or Championship. 5 players from the SPL and 1 from League 1. Worse than, but not too disimilar from the ROI.

The key stat for me is also the one with the biggest differential. It's where the players were playing when they turned 20. Compared to 24/27 playing in England at that age from the ROI team, only 10/27 of our squad were: Gilks, Bardsley, Hanley, Fletcher, Morrison, Mackie, Rhodes, Martin, Mackail-Smith and Bannan.

What can we conclude from this then?

I conclude that the fact we have a stronger domestic league than Ireland is actually hindering our national team as opposed to enhancing it. It's a case in point. In Ireland, due to the low standard of youth development and domestic football any player with a half ounce of talent will go to England at a very early age. There he will come up against a higher standard of opposition, receive a better standard of coaching and become a stronger player for it.

Not here, our players invariably go to Scottish Clubs and stay with them. They will be tested against a lower standard opposition and the coaching, although good is clearly not up to EPL standards. They will then go to England later, if at all, where they will find themselves invariably behind their Irish counterparts who have been in the English system since their early teens. Is it a coincidence that two of our best players ( Fletcher and Bannan ) have never played for a Scottish team?

Can we solve this? Possibly.

Our domestic game is clearly getting weaker and this, using Irelands model, will be better for our national team. There will be more Darren Fletchers and Barry Bannans who can see the big picture and reject the advances of the Old Firm and get themselves to England at an early age. We have the strongest and richest league in the world on our doorstep and the more of our young players who take advantage of this the better our national team will be.

I can envisage a Scotland squad in the very near future which contains no Scottish based players at all ( the latest one included 3/24) and this is excellent for our future chances. The Irish have proved it works and it will work for us aswell. So let's celebrate the weakening of our domestic game with the knowledge that it's making our national team stronger.

The futures bright, the future's Anglo based Scots!


Yes I know I have too much time on my hands!

Good Post.

I do agree with most of what you have said, but I still think that the wyldes and forrests of the world would get into the squad regardless of how poor the Scottish league gets. Celtic and Rangers will always have some sort of influence on the national team.

[paddymcp]

There's no question Trapattoni has been a major factor in their resurgance in the last few years.

Rep. Ireland don't play swash-buckling football but the manager plays to their strengths and they're amongst the most disciplined and organised sides in International football.

Trapattoni is a very tactically astute manager and thats probably why the F.A.I have him on a big contract. You get what you pay for and all that...

If it wasn't for a blatent handball they probably would have been at the 2010 World Cup as well as the upcoming Euro's in Poland and Ukraine. No coincidence that they have a top manager at the helm during this, and we continually fail with average abject pish,4-6-0's ,etc.

This post has been edited by paddymcp: 11 November 2011 - 23:25

[HibeeJibee]

Btw, the SFA's Performance Strategy - "Scotland United" - has set the following targets regarding player destinations:

Quote

* 2010 (commissioned)... 60 Scots in EPL/Championship

* by 2011... minimum 60 Scots in EPL/Championship, minimum 19 in EPL

* by 2015... minimum 100 Scots in EPL/Championship, minimum 30 in EPL

* by 2020... no target set

[gordon the gopher]

How many do we have at the moment? And do they mean 1st teams or they including youths and academys etc?

I know we have 5 or 6 centre halfs aged 16-18 in the EPL yet to make their debuts so hopefully at least a couple will make it.

[ballymoneyyin]

Their manager is better than ours to. Youth and grassroots football in Scotland isnt as big as that of northern Ireland either IMO

[craigkillie]

paddymcp, on 11 November 2011 - 23:23, said:

If it wasn't for a blatent handball they probably would have been at the 2010 World Cup

If they had won the penalty shoot-out which might have followed (assuming neither team scored before the end). And of course they benefited from a ridiculous penalty decision against Georgia in a crucial home qualifier for that tournament when they were trailing 1-0.

You then had the ridiculous scenario which led to the Armenia keeper being sent off in their decider this time around.

[HibeeJibee]

ballymoneyyin, on 11 November 2011 - 23:39, said:

Their manager is better than ours to. Youth and grassroots football in Scotland isnt as big as that of northern Ireland either IMO

FIFA BigCount 2006 (most recent) says:

SCOTLAND
... 4,132 professionals
... 39,234 adult amateurs
... 67,123 organised youths
... plus 302,500 casual participants (grand total 420,589)
... 6,600 clubs running 8,200 teams

NORTHERN IRELAND
... 220 professionals
... 22,600 adult amateurs
... 16,000 organised youths
... plus 10,500 casual participants (grand total 92,320)
... 820 clubs running 1,570 teams

EIRE
... 476 professionals
... 77,870 adult amateurs
... 174,498 organised youths
... plus 98,000 casual participants (grand total 421,644)
... 5,629 clubs running 15,025 teams

WALES
... 550 professionals
... 35,800 adult amateurs
... 31,000 organised youths
... 41,000 casual participants (grand total 173,500)
... 1,900 clubs running 4,500 teams

Republican Irish clearly have more players + teams as a base to work from.

[HibeeJibee]

That situation is probably reflected in another target in "Scotland United", btw...

SFA said that in 2010 we had 65,000 registered players in recreational football.

The target for 2011 is 90,000.
(That must I assume be achieved through getting more people registered who would currently be counted as 'casual participants': they're not going to increase it by ~35% in a year).

The target for 2015 is 130,000.

[King Kong Bundy]

zzzzzzzz

The reason Ireland are miles ahead of us is because they have a better manager. Until the SFA spends a bit of money on a manager, we will be stuck with middle of the road coaches like Levein.

[HibeeJibee]

Is it really just the manager? No other factors, including situational (i.e. who they faced/how the ties went) nor their strength of squad at this time? Anyway he's paid 1.8M Euros per annum... and not all by FAI. It's a hell of a lot of £££ to splurge on a manager, with no guarantee it'll get you qualified. Money that could go on facilities, youth development, etc.

[Chinese Whisperer]

HibeeJibee, on 11 November 2011 - 23:26, said:

Btw, the SFA's Performance Strategy - "Scotland United" - has set the following targets regarding player destinations:

Not sure they should be called "targets". That implies the SFA can somehow influence the numbers, like when you make a budget forecast. Upgrading players from Championship to EPL depends on their team's performances.

[Savage Henry]

craigkillie, on 11 November 2011 - 23:41, said:

If they had won the penalty shoot-out which might have followed (assuming neither team scored before the end). And of course they benefited from a ridiculous penalty decision against Georgia in a crucial home qualifier for that tournament when they were trailing 1-0.

You then had the ridiculous scenario which led to the Armenia keeper being sent off in their decider this time around.

Indeed.

I don't see a lot of evidence that the ROI are significantly better than Scotland.

A better manager and markedly easier qualification groups is the only difference I can see. I'd have fancied Scotland's chances to get out of Ireland's group.

[Bearwithme]

So the proposed solution involves making our own league even worse by sending more of our better players to England?

[Lex]

HibeeJibee, on 11 November 2011 - 23:14, said:

Ultimately, there are so many factors which decide whether a country qualifies for a finals or not... I think it's always slightly tortuous to draw too much from one campaign, or via comparing 2 countries.

However, you're certainly right that the lowly status of football in Eire sees aspiring professionals leave for England whilst still youths.

Equally, though, Northern Ireland (and Wales) are in the same boat as Eire - but they're hardly doing well.

It's not one campaign though, it's every campaign since 1998. Ireland have qualified twice since then and came within a refereeing decision of a third. We haven't really been close since Euro 2000 when England narrowly beat us in a play off.

Wales and NI are both countries with far smaller populations than the Republic and ourselves, so the comparision doesen't hold up well. However if you look at the best Welsh players of recent years you see a familiar pattern developing.

Giggs, Bale, Ramsey, Mark Hughes, Hartson, Savage, Speed...etc etc. Not one of them has kicked a ball for a Welsh based team, all of them spent their formative years in England.

Quote

I do agree with most of what you have said, but I still think that the wyldes and forrests of the world would get into the squad regardless of how poor the Scottish league gets. Celtic and Rangers will always have some sort of influence on the national team.

They're both talented players. The sooner they get themselves down to England the better it will be for their development and the better players they will be for the national team. It's refreshing to see guys like Goodwillie and Conway choosing top Championship teams or lower EPL teams ahead of the Old Firm, long may this trend continue.

paddymcp, on 11 November 2011 - 23:23, said:

There's no question Trapattoni has been a major factor in their resurgance in the last few years.

Rep. Ireland don't play swash-buckling football but the manager plays to their strengths and they're amongst the most disciplined and organised sides in International football.

Trapattoni is a very tactically astute manager and thats probably why the F.A.I have him on a big contract. You get what you pay for and all that...

If it wasn't for a blatent handball they probably would have been at the 2010 World Cup as well as the upcoming Euro's in Poland and Ukraine. No coincidence that they have a top manager at the helm during this, and we continually fail with average abject pish,4-6-0's ,etc.

There is no doubt Levein is a poor manager, he is not the reason we have failed to qualify for every tournament since 1998 though. Ireland qualified in 2002 under McCarthy so at the same time you can't place all the praise for them out performing us this century at Trapps door.

Bearwithme, on 12 November 2011 - 08:32, said:

So the proposed solution involves making our own league even worse by sending more of our better players to England?

The financial situation is doing this for us, we don't have to do anything. However we must encourage our youngsters to go to England as soon as they can. Darren Fletcher rejected Rangers to go to Man U at the age of 11. Barry Bannan chose Aston Villas youth academy instead of Celtics at the age of 14. I am certain they are both better players because of these decisions and their familys must be commended for making such a brave choice.

The more youngsters who follow this lead the stronger our national team will be. The SPL is simply far too weak to provide players for our national team and the sooner we get a Scotland squad soley made up of English based players the better. I can see this happening within 5 years.

This post has been edited by Lex: 12 November 2011 - 10:51

[Bearwithme]

I can't help wondering if some folk's views aren't somewhat shaped by dislike of the Old Firm rather than what's good for the Scottish game as a whole. I'm sure everybody here loves the national team and would dearly like to see it do well. But we can't neglect or basically write off our domestic game which is our bread and butter.

[Savage Henry]

Lex, on 12 November 2011 - 10:17, said:

It's not one campaign though, it's every campaign since 1998. Ireland have qualified twice since then and came within a refereeing decision of a third. We haven't really been close since Euro 2000 when England narrowly beat us in a play off.



They're both talented players. The sooner they get themselves down to England the better it will be for their development and the better players they will be for the national team. It's refreshing to see guys like Goodwillie and Conway choosing top Championship teams or lower EPL teams ahead of the Old Firm, long may this trend continue.



There is no doubt Levein is a poor manager, he is not the reason we have failed to qualify for every tournament since 1998 though. Ireland qualified in 2002 under McCarthy so at the same time you can't place all the praise for them out performing us this century at Trapps door.



The financial situation is doing this for us, we don't have to do anything. However we must encourage our youngsters to go to England as soon as they can. Darren Fletcher rejected Rangers to go to Man U at the age of 11. Barry Bannan chose Aston Villas youth academy instead of Celtics at the age of 14. I am certain they are both better players because of these decisions and their familys must be commended for making such a brave choice.

The more youngsters who follow this lead the stronger our national team will be. The SPL is simply far too weak to provide players for our national team and the sooner we get a Scotland squad soley made up of English based players the better. I can see this happening within 5 years.

Is Gregg Wylde a good player? Seems to me he's John Fleck minus the excess weight. Neither will ever be capped by Scotland. Or if they are, might have a Mark Burchill type career. Why should we be encouraging our technical players to bugger off to England's lower leagues? With the exception of Barry Bannan, who would patently have been stuck on the wing if he had played here (you still get backwards fans calling him a winger when he's a central midfielder, albeit a very tiny one), have any of our better, younger players ever really made a vast improvement technically by playing in England? Get them playing in Italy, and Spain, get them playing so well that the top continental teams want to sign them (and not in a Daily Record "Barcelonal Set For Sensational James Forrest Swoop" sense) and you might see a gradual increase in the technical ability of players and the national team as a whole. Not by playing for Stoke or Brighton they won't.

Incidentally, as has been stated elsewhere, ROI also cheated their way to get within a "referee's decision of a third". One of the worst - arguably corrupt - decisions ever made on a football pitch, and far, far worse than the Henry handball allowed them to get to that play-off. It's an utterly invalid argument to prevent in their defence. And indeed, I would hardly argue any technical gap at all. They may have a more enlightened manager, but that's an entirely different topic.

[Booker_d]

Lex, on 11 November 2011 - 23:01, said:

any player with a half ounce of talent will go to England at a very early age.

Good post, buy in a nutshell, this.

I remember watching an interview years (and Im talking 15 years ago) with a senior figure in the Irish FA talking about their youth set-up and was almost boasting about the fact that theres no money for youth development in Ireland so any talent got papped off to England at the first opportunity. Why should the Irish invest in youth when they can get the English to develop their kids for free (he was pretty much as blatant as that). Whereas we seem to begrudge or forget anyone who moves down south, the Irish actively encourage it, albeit something that is starting to gradually change through Levein. Unfortunately, ROI have a 25 year head start on us.

[Savage Henry]

Booker_d, on 12 November 2011 - 10:45, said:

Good post, buy in a nutshell, this.

I remember watching an interview years (and Im talking 15 years ago) with a senior figure in the Irish FA talking about their youth set-up and was almost boasting about the fact that theres no money for youth development in Ireland so any talent got papped off to England at the first opportunity. Why should the Irish invest in youth when they can get the English to develop their kids for free (he was pretty much as blatant as that). Whereas we seem to begrudge or forget anyone who moves down south, the Irish actively encourage it, albeit something that is starting to gradually change through Levein. Unfortunately, ROI have a 25 year head start on us.

Yeah, but playing for Cardiff or Blackburn teaches them nothing that playing for Rangers or Celtic doesn't. It's all about the money, nothing else. If our young players could remotely trap a ball, then we might be on to something by sending them abroad. But not to Cardiff. Not to Blackburn.

[HibeeJibee]

Chinese Whisperer, on 12 November 2011 - 01:59, said:

Not sure they should be called "targets". That implies the SFA can somehow influence the numbers, like when you make a budget forecast. Upgrading players from Championship to EPL depends on their team's performances.

Well I'm sure if you challenged Stewart Regan on it, he'd dispute that. He'd say that the investment in coaching, facilities and development would create more high-quality players, and this would boost those playing in EPL.

[HibeeJibee]

Savage Henry, on 12 November 2011 - 10:50, said:

Yeah, but playing for Cardiff or Blackburn teaches them nothing that playing for Rangers or Celtic doesn't. It's all about the money, nothing else. If our young players could remotely trap a ball, then we might be on to something by sending them abroad. But not to Cardiff. Not to Blackburn.

I think the authorities realised long ago that Scotsmen simply won't go outside of the island of Britain. Hell, since Collins and Lambert in the late 1990s - how many internationals have played abroad? Miller did a 6-month stint in Turkey and came home, Garry O'Connor did not much longer in Russia and came home. Who else... Jamie Smith?

I do agree that - especially when they're competing in Europe - there isn't a huge difference between weaker English sides and OF.

[Savage Henry]

HibeeJibee, on 12 November 2011 - 10:55, said:

I think the authorities realised long ago that Scotsmen simply won't go outside of the island of Britain. Hell, since Collins and Lambert in the late 1990s - how many internationals have played abroad? Miller did a 6-month stint in Turkey and came home, Garry O'Connor did not much longer in Russia and came home. Who else... Jamie Smith?

I do agree that - especially when they're competing in Europe - there isn't a huge difference between weaker English sides and OF.

One might uncharitably say Aiden McGeady, but he seems to be doing alright. Having said that, if our players are too damned stupid to live abroad for more than six months - and even then, only for half a year with unlimited free flights home - then they aren't going to improve anywhere.

[Bearwithme]

Derek Riordan and Kris Boyd are playing abroad. Whether it's benefiting them other than financially is debatable.