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THe JIMMY WHITE award fro sports great underacheivers. who are they ?

#26
User is offline   ss..schlecht 

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View PostF_T_Y, on 11 September 2011 - 08:42, said:

Yes he did,i wouldnt count it as a major.For darts it has to be terry jenkins !



View PostStewartyMac, on 11 September 2011 - 12:03, said:

You could argue that with Terry Jenkins being such an average player, he's overachieved even getting to six finals,


Thought we were talking about SPORTS underachievers. If you can play it in a pub it isn't a sport :P
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View PostGiGi, on 12 September 2011 - 16:44, said:

He has a similar trophy and world championship haul to John Higgins, who is for my money the best ever (arguably with Hendry). I think could maybe have won a few more tournaments but he's hardly under achieved given the things he has won despite being his own worst enemy.



But he has underacheived because he should have won more.


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But he has underacheived because he should have won more.


I'd say given his mentality towards snooker that he is lucky to win what he has. He looks like he can't be arsed most of the time, and has made no secret of the fact when interviewed most of the time. It's not just his mentality towards snooker either. He seems to be a bit loopy and that can't help things.

I think this mentality means that really, he can't achieve much more than he has.
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View Postss..schlecht, on 12 September 2011 - 19:24, said:

Thought we were talking about SPORTS underachievers. If you can play it in a pub it isn't a sport :P



^^That^^

anyway, under achiever - I give you Nick Heidfeld - Was Brilliant (albeit with heavy backing from Mclaren) in F3000, Came onto the formula once scene with Prost before a move up to a Sauber team on the up. Missed out on his chance to go to Mclaren when Raikonnen took his place, and thus his chance was gone.

Think he is the most successful driver never to win a race.

Not a failure but definitely anderachieved
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View PostDomDom, on 12 September 2011 - 20:01, said:

I'd say given his mentality towards snooker that he is lucky to win what he has. He looks like he can't be arsed most of the time, and has made no secret of the fact when interviewed most of the time. It's not just his mentality towards snooker either. He seems to be a bit loopy and that can't help things.

I think this mentality means that really, he can't achieve much more than he has.


His mental approach and a lot of the time just being a total dick are the reasons he has underachieved, but at the end of the day, he HAS still underachieved.


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David Duval - Once one of the top 2 golfers in the world, was challanging Tiger while Tiger was the one coming through and won the open championship in 2001. Then it went all wrong and he plumeted out of the top 100, then the top 250....then the top 500....then the top 750 all the way down to a low of 882 in the world.
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Stirling Moss is almost certainly the greatest driver not to win the F1 world championship. Between 1955 and 1961 he never finished lower than third in the overall championship, but he never won the title due to his insistence on driving British cars, rather than the more competitive European cars.

Calling him an underachiever is probably a bit harsh though.
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View PostGiGi, on 12 September 2011 - 16:44, said:

He has a similar trophy and world championship haul to John Higgins, who is for my money the best ever (arguably with Hendry). I think could maybe have won a few more tournaments but he's hardly under achieved given the things he has won despite being his own worst enemy.


I dunno, I actually think O'Sullivan is a decent shout for this topic. The greatest natural talent the game's ever seen IMO. His trophy haul should be far, far more than it is. And if you define 'underachievement' as being a relative lack of success equated to talent, then it's a fair opinion.
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View PostStewartyMac, on 12 September 2011 - 21:07, said:

I dunno, I actually think O'Sullivan is a decent shout for this topic. The greatest natural talent the game's ever seen IMO. His trophy haul should be far, far more than it is. And if you define 'underachievement' as being a relative lack of success equated to talent, then it's a fair opinion.

Yeah that's a fair point but I just don't see it like that.

As for the guys who scoffed at my shout that Higgins has a claim to being the best, why not? I'd assume you're looking at guys like Steve Davis and Stephen Hendry, the latter is definitely my favourite sportsman ever, but considering the level of competition at the top of the sport in the last 15 years I reckon he's had an exceptional career and he might not be done yet.
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#35
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These are some of the biggest F1 underachievers within the time I have watched the sport from 1984.

Mike Thackwell - 1980 +1984. Youngest ever driver to race in F1 at the time (1980). Very very quick and a successful driver in F2/F3000 and Sportscars, had a win ratio of almost 20% of races entered, drove in only 2 Grand Prix (+3 fails to qualify). Retired from racing aged only 27. Regarded by many as one of the greatest lost talents of the sport.

Ivan Capelli - 1985 to 93. Made F1 Debut in 1985, F3000 champion in 1986, raced for Leyton House March in F1 from 1987-1991, when the Leyton House was reliable Capelli was fast. Joined a Ferrari team in turmoil and never settled a total nightmare for an Italian driver, career peetered out after that.

Stefano Modena - 1986 to 93. One of the most hyped up drivers ever by the media, called by many the next Senna. Modena was super quick, but maybe lacked the mental toughness, let his head go down too often. 81 starts, had a 2nd and a 3rd in his career. Really should have done better. Martin Brundle had him as his team mate at Brabham for a season and he had raced alongside incredible talents like Stefan Bellof, Michael Schumacher and Mika Hakkinen, Modena was rated as good as these guys.

Roberto Moreno - 1982+1985+1987 to1992+1995. Its one of these mysteries why Roberto never became a top F1 driver, his record in the other catagories is supurb, raced everything and won in everything except in F1, spent far to many seasons in poor machinery and when he got his chance in a Benetton he gave his team mate and friend Nelson Piquet far to much respect and ended up being dropped for rising star Michael Schumacher. He did have a long career only retiring from racing in 2007 having raced on and off in Indycar/Champcars.

Bernd Schneider - 1988-90. Vastly underrated as a F1 driver, should have been in far better machinery than a Zakspeed. F1's loss was the DTM's gain though.

Alessandro Zanardi - 1991-94 + 1999. Almost certainly underachieved as a F1 driver maybe better suited to the more relaxed nature of Champ Cars. As a F1 driver was very quick, quicker than any team mate he was put up against in his 1st term and arguably regarded as quick as Michael Schumacher ( the 2 tested together at Benetton). Left F1 to race in Champcars before coming back to race for Williams, unfortunately he found it tough trying to adapt and returned to Champcars.

Alan McNish - 2002. His season at Toyota in 2002, doesn't really show how good he really was. Into F1 at least 12 years too late. This was a driver that matched and beat Mika Hakkinen in F3 in races and won races in many catagories, tried for years to get into F1 without success. I'm surprised Ron Dennis didn't give him a drive when Hakkinen was banned in 1994 for Hungary.

Jan Magnussen - 1995 to 1998. Probably one of the most frustrating drivers ever. Won more F3 races in a season than anyone up to that time. Raced for Jackie Stewart's team and more often than not was out qualified and out raced by team mate Rubens Barrichello and was eventually dropped, left F1 for racing in the USA.

Jacques Villeneuve - 1996 to 2006. World Champion within 2 years of stepping into F1. Jacques it could have said had fulfilled his potential as one of the sports rising talents, until you read that all his wins and pole positions were won within these first two years. Was it the supurb Adrian Newey designed Williams Renault that someone remarked that the car was so good that even the designer would have won races?. Maybe. But there is absolutely no doubt he was a talented driver but his move to British American Racing ended up as one of the worst career moves within the sport and almost certainly blunted his competitiveness and compromised his chances of ever becoming World Champion again, but made him one of the most highly paid drivers in the sport, which made many question his motives.


Giorgio Pantano - 2004. Race winner in F3000 joined the Jordan team for 2004. He was quick but spent to much time either of falling of the track or over driving, pointing to a need for this guy to calm down. Dropped down to the new GP2 series the following year and focused on improving which he did but never got another break into F1 despite winning the title in 2008. He came into F1 too early in 2004 but by 2008 he was more than ready but the team owners passed him over for the next generation of talent like Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel. He remains the only GP2 champ not to race in F1 after winning the title.


Sebastian Bourdais - 2008 to 2009. Probably should have driven in F1 about 4 or 5 years earlier instead of heading of to America to race in Champ Cars and likely would have had a long reasonably successful career. But Bourdais quickly found himself up against it at Toro Rosso with the future World Champion Sebastian Vettel. There was no doubt the car was a complex beast but Bourdais' constant tinkering with it and sending it the wrong way on set up always put him behind the young Vettel's less complicated approach and frustrated the mechanics. Watching Bourdais through out the season of 2008 you could visually see a man so wound up to be almost on the verge of tears anticipating the next mishap. He was unlucky at times but did create his own problems. After being given the hurry up by his team bosses he did and like his team mate began to qualify top 10. A very unlucky race in Belgium nearly got him on the podium after a suppurb race and also starring in practice and qualifiying. As Vettel was set to move to the Red Bull team for 2009, Bourdais should have been in a good position to make the team his, but again his performances dropped and he was often out paced by his new rookie team mate Sebastian Buemi and was finally dropped.

There are many others who never got the chance or decided against racing in F1 and you wonder how good they might have been like Helio Castro-Neves, Dario Franchitti, Kenny Brack, Thomas Scheckter, Gary Paffett and so on.

This post has been edited by CityDave: 18 September 2011 - 08:44

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#36
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David Coulthard has got to be in there as an underachiever. Did a good job for Williams, McLaren and Red Bull, but given that he spent 4-5 years in Adrian Newey cars, he should've achieved more.
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View Poststewie from paris, on 12 September 2011 - 20:17, said:

His mental approach and a lot of the time just being a total dick are the reasons he has underachieved, but at the end of the day, he HAS still underachieved.


In most cases, the difference between an underachiever and an overachiever is mental attitude anyway - so its a bit, if my auntie had a dick she'd be my uncle. Ronnie o Sullivan is, in my opinion, probably one of the most gifted at his chosen sport on the planet, same with alex higgins - well at the time anyway.

This post has been edited by sparky88: 17 September 2011 - 12:45

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#38
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How about Alan Shearer, one of the best England strikers in the last twenty years?

Only won one medal, at Blackburn. You could argue that he DID achieve in teams that either underachieved or just weren't good enough? Did he just choose to sign for the wrong teams?

Just a thought.

Perhaps football, as a team game, is more difficult to judge?
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#39
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Football is a bad example, and Alan Shearer is a terrible example. He achieved loads in the game....

You can maybe accuse him of lack of ambition, but not underachievement.
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View PostMackie The Staggie, on 12 September 2011 - 20:39, said:

David Duval - Once one of the top 2 golfers in the world, was challanging Tiger while Tiger was the one coming through and won the open championship in 2001. Then it went all wrong and he plumeted out of the top 100, then the top 250....then the top 500....then the top 750 all the way down to a low of 882 in the world.


Christ i'd totally forgotten about him.

I can't remember the circumstances very well, but didn't he f**k around with his swing not long after losing a fair bit of weight?

But you're right, for a short spell he was almost invincible then completely disappeared.

Going back a few years, Ian Baker-Finch would be another one. Pissed all over the field in the Open in Birkdale in 1991 (i think) then had a complete collapse in confidence off the tee. I read an interview with him in a Golf mag a few years ago in which he said he developed something like the "driver yips". He basically couldn't stand on a golf course and keep the ball in play off the tee. He chucked it not long after hitting out of bounds off the 1st at St Andrews, one of the widest fairways in golf.
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Golf is a funny one.. there are so many players who disappeared to obscurity, after looking like they were going to do well...

The thing about Duval is, he has stuck with it... got to think after being that good, and becoming so poor, most players would have chucked it..

Still remember that last round 59 he hit to win a tournament I had backed him in.. incredible stuff.. seemed like he stiffed it at every hole.
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Not too sure but I think Duval suffered from a range of problems from his back and wrist which resulted in having to adapt his swing to (I could be wrong) suffering from Vertigo while on the greens.....which i would imagine seriously play havoc with your putting stroke. To be fairs as mentioned he did stick at it.

I suppose we could add John Daly into the mix as well, another golfer who had it going so well for it to go so wrong. Again credit the fact that he stuck at it.
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View PostthisGRAEME, on 17 September 2011 - 10:33, said:

David Coulthard has got to be in there as an underachiever. Did a good job for Williams, McLaren and Red Bull, but given that he spent 4-5 years in Adrian Newey cars, he should've achieved more.


I would say he was one of the more fortunate drivers that he did realise his potential and got out of F1 what he deserved drove for two of the top teams Williams and McLaren with 13 wins, 62 podiums and 12 pole positions. He achieved and that probably made it easier to take a step back to the midfield and race for Red Bull.
At Red Bull he helped develop the car into the race winner it is now, it takes time to develop a consistantly front running race winning car. David Coulthard raced 10 and a half years driving Adrian Newey cars, 2 of his 4 years with Red Bull was in helping turn Red Bull into a front runner through development in races and then when he retired he still tested the cars for the team. A designer like Adrian Newey will carry his design with him to a new team, from Leyton House March to Williams, from Williams to McLaren and from McLaren to Red Bull each carries the development/ideas forward from one car to the next. Even Adrian Newey can get it wrong like the McLaren MP4-18 (never raced) and the MP4-19 both radical cars that suffered from poor reliabilty and were just not quick enough.
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suggestions.

Stephen Hughes- good player with bags of ability
Barry Hume- golfing version too keen on booze
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View PostDeadStar, on 12 September 2011 - 17:58, said:

John Higgins the best snooker player ever?

Honestly?

There is certainly an argument for it.
He's certainly one of, if not the most complete snooker player I've ever seen.
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Only an idiot would dismiss Higgins' so easily in a "best player ever" debate.
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