[HibeeJibee]

Wonderful piece of "are you actually serious?" from Jim Spence, in his BBC Blog today.

He observes how comparative minnows HJK Helsinki beat German behemoths Schalke 04 at home, 2-0... and then asks why, if the Finns - where "football comes behind ice hockey and basketball in the nation's affections" - can do that, why on earth can't Rangers swat aside a "smaller club" like Maribor.

Erm, Jim - because Maribor beat a bigger club just like Helsinki did ? F*ck me.

Of course, he ends with the usual 1960s nostalgia-fest:

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk..._or_are_we.html

There was a time when Scottish sides held their heads high in Europe. Aberdeen, Dundee United, Dundee, Hibs, Dunfermline and Kilmarnock have all on occasion had great nights on the European stage.

What has changed since those days and how do we ever go about recreating them?

[Alba gu Brath]

After mid-week's performances, I fear for the future of Scottish football...

[Supras]

HibeeJibee, on 20 August 2011 - 11:19, said:

If a foreigner read it, he'd well imagine the Scottish game was one of the very poorest, smallest and lowest-quality in Europe.

Yeah, part of the Little Englander mentality is putting everyone else down and someone ever said this on an English forum, to the reply there are 53 leagues in Europe, do you think we are about 50th? We're 16 in the rankings [you fuckwit].

I'm involved quite a bit in youth football and I am regularly horrified by the attitudes and the tactics of the coaches as well as playing on 11 a side pitches from the age of 11. We are stifling ourselves, and if we ever do improve this is what we absolutely must focus on.

This post has been edited by Supras: 20 August 2011 - 14:54

[Monkey Tennis]

I caught bits of Sportsound this afternoon. They'd clearly been discussing midweek's results and attempting to explore what went wrong. Something about the disappearance of public parks in Glasgow must have come up, prompting numerous e-mails.

I wouldn't even disagree with some of the sentiment; it's just the prompt that seems misplaced to me.

Hands being wrung and beds wetted, I can just about get after the Scottish national team flops. When our clubs struggle though, I don't really think it reflects anything we can address.
Yes, the OF struggled (not badly enough for my liking), but will still probably get through.
The real depression however has been sparked by the Hearts result and it's just daft. Harry Redknapp and even Clive Tyldsley have actually achieved more perspective on this than most commentaters in Scotland.

[KnightswoodBear]

Redknapp's comments have been pretty good. He's basically said "we've got shit loads more money than Hearts and can pay better players" and he's not been saying it gloatingly, more "well this is how it is, what the f**k did you think was going to happen?"

[WaffenThinMint]

KnightswoodBear, on 21 August 2011 - 09:18, said:

Redknapp's comments have been pretty good. He's basically said "we've got shit loads more money than Hearts and can pay better players" and he's not been saying it gloatingly, more "well this is how it is, what the f**k did you think was going to happen?"

Redknapp was rather impressive. You could see his exasperation, and it was clear he wanted to say "are you buggers finally gonna see the elephant in the room now? You've let your club game stagnate to such a level something like this was bound to happen - didn't you get the message after the Artmedia business five years back?", but knew it wouldn't have changed anything if he had, so why bother?

Compare that with Neil Lennon's 'Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain!' stuff - of course he's going to say that! The last thing the Old Firm want are any changes that might bust their hegemony up here. They'd sooner see Scottish club football behind that of Luxumbourg rather than lose their monopoly - the old "rather be big fish in the wee pond" syndrome.

[Supras]

WaffenThinMint, on 21 August 2011 - 21:13, said:

Redknapp was rather impressive. You could see his exasperation, and it was clear he wanted to say "are you buggers finally gonna see the elephant in the room now? You've let your club game stagnate to such a level something like this was bound to happen - didn't you get the message after the Artmedia business five years back?", but knew it wouldn't have changed anything if he had, so why bother?

Compare that with Neil Lennon's 'Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain!' stuff - of course he's going to say that! The last thing the Old Firm want are any changes that might bust their hegemony up here. They'd sooner see Scottish club football behind that of Luxumbourg rather than lose their monopoly - the old "rather be big fish in the wee pond" syndrome.

I should never have to post something like this, but what Neil Lennon says is more intelligent than what you think Harry Redknapp wants to say. Well that's a thoroughly depressing statement.

I suppose we didn't get the 'Artmedia' business, but we still managed to reach the knockout stages of the CL several times, got some major scalps and reached a European final. Something that no nation of similar, and many of far greater, size can even dream of. The achievements of Scottish football over the past decade have been incredible and we have set a bench mark most nations couldn't even dream of matching. And, of course, we are set a benchmark or self deprecation that few people could match either. It's like Jessica Alba thinking she's ugly - which is a perfect example, because she actually does. It's like us hiding profit figures under the headline 'Scottish clubs facing financial strife', which we actually do.

But anyway, I do agree we have stagnated to the extent that all these pie in the sky solutions of cheaper tickets prices, improved coaching, time machine to the late 60s all ignore the single barrier stopping Scottish football reaching any higher than its current level. Population.

We have an incredible, almost unrivaled, interest in football in this country. Our % of population going to games is amongst the highest in Europe, and comfortably ahead of England, Germany, Italy, France and Spain. But it doesn't matter how much go to the matches if the population itself isn't large enough. So do you want to improve Scottish football? I suggest we open the flood gates to immigrants of West African descent and we are sorted. Say, increase the population by 5 times and we will be far more competitive.

Staying at 5 million means we won't get worse but we will stay the same, and it's only so long we can heroically punch above our weight as we do now. At the moment we are at an incredible 16th in the rankings, above far larger nations like Sweden, Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and Israel. People don't seem to realise that at the moment we are massively over achieving and when we really do reach equilibrium, somewhere around Georgia, then you'll realise how good we have it now.

Me? I'm delighted at Scottish football at the moment. I have the perspective to realise how well we are doing, and how the odds are stacked against this continuing. Particularly the neanderthal attitudes of our fans. We don't deserve Scottish football being this good.

[HibeeJibee]

WaffenThinMint, on 21 August 2011 - 21:13, said:

Redknapp was rather impressive. You could see his exasperation, and it was clear he wanted to say "are you buggers finally gonna see the elephant in the room now? You've let your club game stagnate to such a level something like this was bound to happen - didn't you get the message after the Artmedia business five years back?", but knew it wouldn't have changed anything if he had, so why bother?

Perhaps as "the Artmedia business 5 years back" predates - by 2 years - the "Celtic in CL last 16/Rangers in UEFA Cup Final/Aberdeen in UC KO rounds and drawing with Bayern business" of 2 years back?

Among all the press and P&B poster woe-is-us moping, I've still yet to see illustrated any realistic description of what can be markedly changed to take us into this promised land of European glory.

[Supras]

HibeeJibee, on 22 August 2011 - 11:17, said:

Among all the press and P&B poster woe-is-us moping, I've still yet to see illustrated any realistic description of what can be markedly changed to take us into this promised land of European glory.

I have, a dramatic, unprecedented, 5 fold increase in our population.

[H_B]

KnightswoodBear, on 21 August 2011 - 09:18, said:

Redknapp's comments have been pretty good. He's basically said "we've got shit loads more money than Hearts and can pay better players" and he's not been saying it gloatingly, more "well this is how it is, what the f**k did you think was going to happen?"

Spot on. Money talks.

And Redknapp knows this well. It's why Spurs can't compete with the Man Citys of the world either and why Luca Modric can't be paid what he'd like to pay him at Spurs.

It's all about financial levels.

[Supras]

H_B, on 22 August 2011 - 11:52, said:

Spot on. Money talks.

And Redknapp knows this well. It's why Spurs can't compete with the Man Citys of the world either and why Luca Modric can't be paid what he'd like to pay him at Spurs.

It's all about financial levels.

Yeah, because the gap between Spurs and Man City is as big as the gap between Man City and Spurs

[The Old Northerner]

Supras, on 22 August 2011 - 12:08, said:

Yeah, because the gap between Spurs and Man City is as big as the gap between Man City and Spurs

Sorry. Had to be done

[H_B]

Supras, on 22 August 2011 - 12:08, said:

Yeah, because the gap between Spurs and Man City is as big as the gap between Man City and Spurs

Oh dear...

Ignoring the fact you mangled the sentence, where did I say the gap was similar? It's just a fact that Spurs financially cannot compete for the type of player Man City can buy. There is a huge gap between the two.

The fact there is a Grand Canyon chasm between Spurs and Hearts doesn't take away from that.

Redknapp and Spurs are absolutely expected to be well below Man City. Because Spurs can't pay players 200K a week and sign them for 35 million.

[Supras]

The Old Northerner, on 22 August 2011 - 13:02, said:

Sorry. Had to be done

Oh whatever.

H_B, on 22 August 2011 - 14:37, said:

Oh dear...

Ignoring the fact you mangled the sentence, where did I say the gap was similar? It's just a fact that Spurs financially cannot compete for the type of player Man City can buy. There is a huge gap between the two.

The fact there is a Grand Canyon chasm between Spurs and Hearts doesn't take away from that.

Redknapp and Spurs are absolutely expected to be well below Man City. Because Spurs can't pay players 200K a week and sign them for 35 million.

There isn't a huge gap at all. And there is a chasm of difference between a long term financial gap and then a team like Man City have to climb above several other teams in a very short space of time. In the last 10 years I wouldn't be surprised if the spending of Spurs was actually above that of City and prior to recent investment Spurs were on a higher financial level than Man City.

'Well below'? How low should Spurs be exactly? Do you still think wage budget determines absolutely where every team would finish?

[H_B]

Supras, on 22 August 2011 - 15:05, said:

'Well below'? How low should Spurs be exactly? Do you still think wage budget determines absolutely where every team would finish?

There is a massive gap. Man City can sign Sergio Aguerro and Samir Nasri. Spurs have to get Man City's cast offs on loan, and beg Man City to pay half their wages.

Spurs should be 6th. And yes, I believe clubs spending more than 2x what you are on wages will 99 times out of 100 finish ahead of you in the league.

[HibeeJibee]

In today's Scotsman, we have Martin Hannan making a meal of the 'co-efficient consequences'... and also, somewhat bizarrely, telling us a 0-0 draw and 2-1 away defeat for the Old Firm are 100% full-blown verge-of-elimination catastrophes, then a paragraph later telling us that a 0-0 draw and 1-0 away defeat are top opportunities to progress for Cypriot clubs. The lead 'Letter to the Editor' declares that the future of Scottish football lies in our 5 or 6 biggest clubs entering the Football League, the rest filling a Scottish Conference alongside the English equivalents at tier 5; whilst Billy Dodds draws the breathtaking conclusion that Thursday was worse than his results v Skonto Riga and MyPa47... and the solution is cheaper ticket prices, summer football, and adopting more defensive tactics.

It's embarrassing.

[joe pineapples]

HibeeJibee, on 22 August 2011 - 20:28, said:

In today's Scotsman, we have Martin Hannan making a meal of the 'co-efficient consequences'... and also, somewhat bizarrely, telling us a 0-0 draw and 2-1 away defeat for the Old Firm are 100% full-blown verge-of-elimination catastrophes, then a paragraph later telling us that a 0-0 draw and 1-0 away defeat are top opportunities to progress for Cypriot clubs. The lead 'Letter to the Editor' declares that the future of Scottish football lies in our 5 or 6 biggest clubs entering the Football League, the rest filling a Scottish Conference alongside the English equivalents at tier 5; whilst Billy Dodds draws the breathtaking conclusion that Thursday was worse than his results v Skonto Riga and MyPa47... and the solution is cheaper ticket prices, summer football, and adopting more defensive tactics.

It's embarrassing.

It's embarrassing but reads like it's leading to a number of old agenda's being trotted out to suit some of the football establishment.