[greenockraver]

As we know the last Premier Division season was 97/98 when celtic won the last one. Does anyone know what happened to the trophy? Did Celtic get to keep it or was it passed to the 1st division. If that is the case, did they just discontinue what was at the time the "3rd Division" trophy?

Cheerss.

[bmccoll]

greenockraver, on 24 January 2011 - 01:31, said:

As we know the last Premier Division season was 97/98 when celtic won the last one. Does anyone know what happened to the trophy? Did Celtic get to keep it or was it passed to the 1st division. If that is the case, did they just discontinue what was at the time the "3rd Division" trophy?

Cheerss.

The Championship trophy belongs to the Scottish League and is therefore awarded to the First Division champions. As for the Third Division trophy, is there actually two in existence, one being mothballed?

[greenockraver]

So is it confirmed that the old SFL Premier trophy goes to the 1st division champions now? And did anyone find out what happened with regards to the 3rd division trophys , (I.E One must have been discontinued) ... thank you

[HibeeJibee]

I have the vaguest of memories of this being raised in this sub-forum a few years ago, and the conclusion being that the Premier Division trophy had been discontinued, in contrast to England where... ostensibly...the EPL had been newly formed above the existing First Division. My memory may be deceiving me, though.

It'd be equally interesting to know what happened to the old Third Division trophy of the 1920s, and the C Division trophy/ies of the 1940-1950s. There was a special exhibition at Hampden 2 years ago of trophies, but it was mainly county and discontinued cups.

[greenockraver]

HibeeJibee, on 31 October 2011 - 10:50, said:

I have the vaguest of memories of this being raised in this sub-forum a few years ago, and the conclusion being that the Premier Division trophy had been discontinued, in contrast to England where... ostensibly...the EPL had been newly formed above the existing First Division. My memory may be deceiving me, though.

It'd be equally interesting to know what happened to the old Third Division trophy of the 1920s, and the C Division trophy/ies of the 1940-1950s. There was a special exhibition at Hampden 2 years ago of trophies, but it was mainly county and discontinued cups.

That's really interesting about the trophy being discontinued with the wealth of history around it.

I actually held the 3rd division trophy when i was a wee boy, morton had won it and brought it to my school fete for the day. The trophy as far as I can remember is a totally different shape from the current 1st and 2nd division trophys. I can vaguely remember the names of clubs from back as far as 1994 being on there. (Which is of course when the 3rd division was introduced in it's current guise.)

This makes your explanation all the more likely to be true.

[greenockraver]

Managed to find clear pictures of all three sfl league trophies...

http://kennyramsay.p...0000b7Fr2roeJSo


The middle one (1st division) has to be the old premier division trophy. it is identical:

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

These pictures from 1998 and 2011 would suggest that it is indeed the old Premier Division trophy that is now given to the 1st Division Champions.




Pictures of the pre 1999 Third Division trophy seem to be hard to come by so I can't confirm if that trophy is still in use today.

[greenockraver]

Also , if you look at the 2nd division trophy (on the right) in the link I posted, you can see a vast number of names inscribed on it, suggessting that this would have traditionally been for the 2nd tier.

IMO, there is most likely a discontinued trophy which was presented to either the 2nd or 3rd division between 1994- 1998 (most likely the 3rd.)

[HibeeJibee]

Grand. The "original" Third Division trophy must have had a short life, as it'd only be in use from 1994 to 1998.

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Is there not a chance that the pre 1999 first Division trophy is the one that has been discontinued and the 2nd and 3rd division trophies remained the same as before?

[greenockraver]

Weirdly , going by this photo from Livingstons 95/96 3rd division championship season, it seems that the 3rd division trophy of then and now is one and the same:

http://www.flickr.co...ate/5363535659/


Spooky.

Suppose it has to be the other one then!

[greenockraver]

Sherrif John Bunnell, on 31 October 2011 - 12:47, said:

Is there not a chance that the pre 1999 first Division trophy is the one that has been discontinued and the 2nd and 3rd division trophies remained the same as before?

If you look at the 2nd division trophy , you can see that there is a large number of inscribed names on there. This suggests it was previously used as the 2nd tier trophy (as its always been there)... It also seems like a smaller scale version of its bigger brother

Likely scenario:

Post SPL breakaway -


SFL1 - Old Scottish premier division trophy
SFL2 - Old Scottish division 1 trophy
SFL3 - Same trophy (going by the livingston photo)

Meaning the short lived 2nd division trophy from 1994-98 is no longer used.

But in theory, you could also be right!

its very confusing

This post has been edited by greenockraver: 31 October 2011 - 13:08

[HibeeJibee]

greenockraver, on 31 October 2011 - 13:05, said:

Likely scenario:

Post SPL breakaway -


SFL1 - Old Scottish premier division trophy
SFL2 - Old Scottish division 1 trophy
SFL3 - Same trophy (going by the livingston photo)

Meaning the short lived 2nd division trophy from 1994-98 is no longer used.

Maybe I've got confused... but if we're saying the current First + Second (formerly Premier + First 1974-1998, First + Second 18xx-1974) division trophies are those which have been in use for a century; and the current Third Division trophy is the one used "pre-1998" but introduced 1994; that means the Second Division trophy introduced 1974 was retired?

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 31 October 2011 - 13:23

[greenockraver]

HibeeJibee, on 31 October 2011 - 13:20, said:

Maybe I've got confused... but if we're saying the current First + Second (formerly Premier + First 1974-1998, First + Second 18xx-1974) division trophies are those which have been in use for a century; and the current Third Division trophy is the one used "pre-1998" but introduced 1994; that means the Second Division trophy introduced 1974 was retired?

Apologies I totally forgot about the reconstruction in 1974.

Yes I think you've nailed it there.

[HibeeJibee]

not necessarily. I dug out my copy of the 1994-95 league Review. On page 2 is that picture of all 40 club captains at reconstruction (which had its own thread on this sub-forum recently) and infront the 4 league trophies, in rough order left-to-right.

We have Little Brother, Big Brother... and then 2 trophies which are identical, except the righthand one is perhaps 5% smaller. Evidently the Third Division trophy (presumably cast 1994) was just a cut-down version of the Second Division trophy (presumably cast 1974 unless an old one recycled). So what Livingston were holding in 1996 isn't necessarily what's in use for the Third Division currently!!

[HibeeJibee]

It'd nonetheless make sense that the 1974 trophy was retired:
... they'd be left with 3 trophies with the correct names: 'First Division' (cast 1890) or presumably just 'League Championship', 'Second Division' (cast 1892) and 'Third Division' (cast 1994)*
... there'd be more engraving space on the 1994 one than the 1974 one

*assuming the trophy used from 1974 was cast 1974 as 'Second Division', not an old 1920s Third/1940s C Division trophy recycled

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 31 October 2011 - 13:52

[greenockraver]

Right so now we're back to the assumption that the 3rd division trophy cast in 1994 is the defunct one? ( using last in first out logic mixed with common sense i suppose).

mind bender.

Edit: Just read your previous post. That would also explain what I remember about the trophy from 2003/04 - there being inscriptions only as far back as 1994.

If you have the time , would it be possible to upload the photo by any chance? Understandable if you cant.

This post has been edited by greenockraver: 31 October 2011 - 13:57

[HibeeJibee]

See:

http://partickthistl...com/page/Images

One's slightly shorter + squater.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 31 October 2011 - 13:59

[greenockraver]

HibeeJibee, on 31 October 2011 - 13:58, said:

See:

http://partickthistl...com/page/Images

One's slightly shorter + squater.

the link isnt working.

EDIT: its ok mate, got the photo.

Thanks for the info

This post has been edited by greenockraver: 31 October 2011 - 14:07

[HibeeJibee]

http://partickthistl...com/page/ Images

See if that works, for others.

[The Master]

Surely the Premier Division trophy will have been engraved with "Scottish Football League Premier Division"? And as such, it would seem strange to award it to the winners of SFL1.

Unless, of course, it's engraved with "The Scottish Football League Championship", as in it is the trophy that is awarded to the champions of the Scottish Football League. AFAIK, the trophy currently awarded for winning the 2nd tier in English football (avoiding its real name to avoid confusion) is engraved with "The English Football League Championship", again meaning the champions of the English Football League.

'Tis slightly confusing...how are the SFL at answering emails these days?

[HibeeJibee]

I've always found them very helpful, albeit you'd be relying on someone working in the office having been around for the best part of 20 years, or having heard the story off someone else. Probably worth a try anyway.

EDIT: Or a great big trophy sitting in the office between the coffee maker and the fire extinguisher.

I've looked at some squad photos on Hibs Programmes... the trophy currently awarded for the First Division does appear to be the one Hibs received in 1951-52 as First Division champions (top-tier then of course), so it was presumably the top-level trophy from 1890 right through to 1998. Presumably engraved as you suggest.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 31 October 2011 - 15:34

[Skyline Drifter]

HibeeJibee, on 31 October 2011 - 13:51, said:

It'd nonetheless make sense that the 1974 trophy was retired:
... they'd be left with 3 trophies with the correct names: 'First Division' (cast 1890) or presumably just 'League Championship', 'Second Division' (cast 1892) and 'Third Division' (cast 1994)*
... there'd be more engraving space on the 1994 one than the 1974 one

*assuming the trophy used from 1974 was cast 1974 as 'Second Division', not an old 1920s Third/1940s C Division trophy recycled

I have a photo of me with the second division championship trophy when we won it in 2002. I can't quite make it all out but I think it says:

The Scottish Football League
Constituted 1894
B Division Champion
(I'm not certain it says "B", it might be "2nd" but the light catches the photo just there and I can't quite see it. It isn't a big enough space to say "Second" I don't think).

It appears to have names on it going back to the 1890's.

This post has been edited by Skyline Drifter: 31 October 2011 - 16:30

[Convenor]

greenockraver, on 31 October 2011 - 12:12, said:

I actually held the 3rd division trophy when i was a wee boy,

I’ve drank out of it. Many many times on a lovely sunny evening back in May 2000. It was bloody amazing

I'm sure it's still the same original trophy

[HibeeJibee]

One of these weird coincidences, but I was flicking through a Berwick Rangers book earlier - the back page is a close-up of the trophy from 2006-07, when we won the Third Division. It reads "Scottish Football League Instituted 1890 Third Division Championship" on the face.

Unless it's the 1920s Third Division trophy re-used for the Second Division from 1974, then it's the 1994 one, and the 1974/older one was retired.