[Musketeer Gripweed]

craigkillie, on 26 August 2010 - 21:28, said:

Loads of youth players have been promoted in Scottish football in the last few years. You could probably name 4 or 5 from most clubs.

The only Scottish player I can think of at the moment who has gone on to a higher level in the last couple of years is Danny Wilson, even then, he won't get a game in the first team for at least another seaon, I hope.

That's where we are struggling at the momet compared to where we used to be.

I guess, therefore, that we are suffering up here because of the amount of money in the English game nowadays.

I still blame Playstations for something, I can't remember what though, and for that reason, I'm out.

[HibeeJibee]

Unleash The Nade, on 26 August 2010 - 21:43, said:

Much of the problem lies with the fact that Celtic & Rangers have dominated the top tier of Scottish football for years,with no real serious,consistent competition from any other club.
Their standards have steadily dropped,as have those of the rest of the SPL teams,resulting in an overall decline in the SPL.
Being perfectly honest Celtic and Rangers are two piles of shite,who are better than the rest of the shite below them.Fact

But nevetheless, we're still doing reasonably well for a nation of 5M people, aren't we?

[Willie Gray Ate My Hamster]

HibeeJibee, on 26 August 2010 - 21:42, said:

So having a bigger league works for Celtic or Rangers getting beaten by weaker teams from bigger leagues, but smaller ones don't when getting beaten by weaker teams from smaller leagues? Come again?


Income is like opium dependancy. It doesn't matter how much someone else is dependant you're own levels of intake is what matters. If you cut club income in Scotland, they've less money for wages + youth development.

I don't think Hibs would develop better players, were we poorer... and playing Morton + Raith, not the OF + Hearts more often.

We'd develop worse players, IMO.

And how do you get that? The Scottish leagues was clearly at it's peak in the 1960's/1970's when we had a 18 team league..

[Unleash The Nade]

HibeeJibee, on 26 August 2010 - 21:45, said:

But nevetheless, we're still doing reasonably well for a nation of 5M people, aren't we?

When you say we're, who are you referring to and what do you class as reasonably well?

This post has been edited by Unleash The Nade: 26 August 2010 - 21:48

[vikingTON]

HibeeJibee, on 26 August 2010 - 21:42, said:

So having a bigger league works for Celtic or Rangers getting beaten by weaker teams from bigger leagues, but smaller ones don't when getting beaten by weaker teams from smaller leagues? Come again?

I don't think the level of competition requires the same brute physicality in any of the three leagues, do you? So this is how they manage to develop technique within a small league. We patently can not do this because sides who attempt to build young technical sides run the risk of inconsistency, being vulnerable to hammer-thrower teams, and even getting relegated. There is too much pressure for results come what may, footballing ability as a distant, distant second.

Quote

Income is like opium dependancy. It doesn't matter how much someone else is dependant you're own levels of intake is what matters. If you cut club income in Scotland, they've less money for wages + youth development.

Uhuh. A likely story. Surely less wages would mean less imported duds and more young players gaining first team experience - youth development actually on the pitch, gaining experience - and for more clubs the manic pressure to avoid relegation or win at all costs would recede. That offers a calm for technical development that is not present in any of the Scottish leagues.

Quote

I don't think Hibs would develop better players, were we poorer... and playing Morton + Raith, not the OF + Hearts more often.

Hibs are one of a handful of sides who punch their weight with youth development. And are on the clubs with less pressure than most, seeing as they're unlikely to go down in any given season. I don't think that's entirely a coincidence.

This post has been edited by vikingTON: 26 August 2010 - 21:52

[The Laird]

HibeeJibee, on 26 August 2010 - 21:07, said:

Wake up, and smell the coffee. Scotland is never going to be competing with nations like Greece, Portugal, Netherlands, etc. ... no matter how much Henry McLeish tells us that we can, and that we are "underperforming", that we "deserve much better", and that we "can be great again"... and that if only the government would give him the entire public expenditure of Scotland for a week, he would deliver it + pronto too.

Dundee Utd and Motherwell did honourably during the past 8 days. Celtic lost to someone they should have beaten, due to poor management + poor play.

We're a nation of 5M people, on the edge of Europe, with a totally outdated management style + tactics + technical ability. We're small, we're all stuck in the past to greater or lesser degrees, and far too many of us are still thinking Scotland is the "biggest of the rest". We are not. We're a small-to-middle-sized nation. Get over it.

Our fans and press are wallowing in a pit of nostalgia. Soon they may be drowning, tbh.

Quality post....this sums it up for me....

[Supras]

Scotland is a tiny country that punches well above its weight.

Our record in European competition in the last decade is fantastic and unparalleled by nations of similar size. Most nations as small as us could only dream of having such a successful and popular league.

[caleyjaggi]

Plenty nations of similar size can still turn it on at the highest level, e.g Uruguay. Basically you reap what you sow and our game is piss poor at every level, facilities, mentality, schools football , under-funded and run by a bunch of ballet dancers and masked by a big two clubs who dont want to play here and whose fans fly the flags of two other nations. Go figure.

[Unleash The Nade]

caleyjaggi, on 26 August 2010 - 22:16, said:

Plenty nations of similar size can still turn it on at the highest level, e.g Uruguay. Basically you reap what you sow and our game is piss poor at every level, facilities, mentality, schools football , under-funded and run by a bunch of ballet dancers and masked by a big two clubs who dont want to play here and whose fans fly the flags of two other nations. Go figure.

100% spot on

[Supras]

caleyjaggi, on 26 August 2010 - 22:16, said:

Plenty nations of similar size can still turn it on at the highest level, e.g Uruguay. Basically you reap what you sow and our game is piss poor at every level, facilities, mentality, schools football , under-funded and run by a bunch of ballet dancers and masked by a big two clubs who dont want to play here and whose fans fly the flags of two other nations. Go figure.

What great club teams do Uruguay have?

Piss poor in comparison to who exactly? Name specific nations.

Scottish football does fantastic given our limited fan base, in the last 10 years two Scottish sides have reached the final of a European competition, that is an exceptional record that very few nations - and none of our size - can boast.

For more than two decades Scotland was above Belgium in the EURO coefficient despite Belgium being twice the size!

Sadly, our press and our fans are totally lacking in perspective, and seem to relish being dour, miserable c***s.

[EdTheDuck]

Hmm
Would this thread and others like it even exist if the OF were still doing reasonably well in Europe?
I find it a little disturbing that our obsession with the disaster that has befallen Scottish club fitba in Europe seems to dovetail with the fall and fall of the OF?
I've no doubt tht tomorrow's redtops will be screaming about the debacle that is Scottish Fitba and there will be a great deal of hand wringing, wailing and gnashing of teeth in the airwaves over the next few days; however, if celtic had managed to squeeze past Utrecht it would have been put on hold until the next OF disaster, the Motherwell and United results would have scarcely raised an eyebrow, but now they will be conveniently bundled together with celtic's disaster.

I do look forward to Chic going apoplectic about the ongoing catastrophy, calamity and cataclysm (and any other words he can find in his thesaurus) of the SPL, though, and how the Split is to blame for all our ills

[HibeeJibee]

I'll try to sum up the last few posts...

What we did or didn't do during the 1960s is irrelevant now, and suggestions that going back to the 1970s way of thing would be a solution, is nonsense. The world around us has changed.

Secondly I agree that our overall performance recently has been perfectly - some would say, extremely - adequate for a nation of our size and potential.

Thirdly, while small countries like Uruguay can do good things... the continent we play within is Europe. While it maybe possible to perform better than we do now, there is a widespread delusion of our capabilities.


Certainly there is no golden bullet. An 18-team SPL wouldn't help us... Henry McLeish's half a billion £ training centres wouldn't help us... we'd be looking at root and branch reform of everything, inside football and in society more generally.

That won't happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't guarantee results.


I've said it before... it's like the decline of the British Empire. Our time of high prominence has gone. "Farewell the trumpets".

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 26 August 2010 - 23:07

[ShedruleFTD83]

We did well tonight and could have went through, Daly missed a sitter, would have been a great result, but 1-1 away in Athens is respectable on the night considering we were the ones who people thought had the least chance (our own fans too)

The annoying thing is we fecked up at home and it was our own doing really, we badly missed Swanson but we should not have been playing with 3 centre mids, it was very disjointed and nothing like what we are capable of, same as against ICT/St Mirren, they had one realy chance and took it but it came about on our own doing, 0-0 last week and we were through.... a case of what could have been.

I honestly think if we had turned up last week we'd be in the group stages now... good experience for the players though if we are to get there again.

This post has been edited by ShedruleFTD83: 26 August 2010 - 23:14

[southview]

Celtic's performance tonight was the worst I've ever seen from a Scottish club in Europe*. An absolute shambles right through the side. Embarrassing to watch.

It's totally unacceptable that our second-biggest club, with a support base three times the size of Utrecht and probably a wage bill to match, is so completely outclassed and out-thought.

And this was a team containing foreigners who are supposedly better than anything we can rustle up here. Honestly can't believe how bad they were. Lennon was so naive it was beyond belief.

Dundee United did better than I expected in getting a draw in Athens. I expected them to lose over two legs so no shame in how they did.

I felt Motherwell had a good shout of getting through, particularly after a reasonable first leg. I'm disappointed they haven't made it actually.

Until we can beat the Odenses of Europe, we will never make any progress. We are a third-rate football nation and falling further.

Third-rate yet paying first-rate prices at the turnstiles that is. How does that equate by the way?

Our population has nothing to do with it IMO and is a convenient smokescreen for many. Slovenia has a population of around 2M and NK Maribor had only played two matches of their season yet still rattled Hibs good and proper.

I don't believe for one minute that we should be competing with the top sides, but I think we are entitled to feel that we have enough to see off teams who appear of a similar standing to our own. Shrugging our shoulders and saying 'well, we shouldn't expect to beat anybody' is the attitude of a loser and that's what we have become when it comes to football.

The endless excuses for defeats are unparalelled with anybody else and becoming weary and frustrating. Why bother entering these tournaments if we don't think we can do well in them?

Nothing will be done of course. We will continue to play the same tired brand of industrial football and give the red card to anything fresh, innovative and new. The SFA will see our players being bought by English clubs and feel that is success. We must be doing something right, they'll say. It's a joke.

This isn't about being unrealistic or too ambitious. But what's the point in moaning? We'll have this debate again next year.

*Forgot to add: I never saw Aberdeen's 5-1 hammering v Sigma Olomouc at Pittodrie. I'm sure that was pretty horrendous to view too.

This post has been edited by southview: 26 August 2010 - 23:34

[HibeeJibee]

Of course the decline in our co-efficient before this season has already seen the chance of you getting there again reduce. Unless one of the OF are going to finish 4th... it's very possible that the non-OF top 6 will be fighting it out for 1 EL place, and 1 EL place only.

Overall, Dundee United did what I'd hoped for them: they got a draw in one of the 2 legs. The fact you ran them close, a strong bonus.

We'd always expect 3rd in Greece to be better than 3rd in Scotland, tbh.

[ShedruleFTD83]

We haven't disgraced Scotland that for sure, we can hold our heads high after tonight

We have though, taking the 1st leg into account, lets ourselves down, we were capable of much better at Tannadice and i dont think we'd have let Scotland down in the groups even though we'd be going no further.

Proud but also disappointed.

This post has been edited by ShedruleFTD83: 26 August 2010 - 23:35

[HibeeJibee]

Southview... I take on board a lot of what you say. And as I've said already, Hibs losing to Maribor and Celtic losing to Utrecht were both what are clearly unacceptable results. Both were seeded, and both should have progressed IMO.

However, the Odense thing I do disagree with. Odense finished 2nd in Denmark, Motherwell finished 5th in Scotland. We're similar size to Danes IIRC, and I think Motherwell winning would have been a pleasant surprise. Expecting them to have won is misguided IMO.


Overall, we don't consistently underperform. Sometimes individual clubs do... sometimes others over-perform.

Only 2 or 3 years ago we lauded Celtic (last 16 of the CL), Rangers (UC Final) and Aberdeen (UC KO rounds). Our fans memories are short and in many cases their expectations = wildly exaggerated. It's 2010. We're not big. We're not strong. We're not powerful.

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 26 August 2010 - 23:36

[southview]

HibeeJibee, on 26 August 2010 - 23:35, said:

Southview... I take on board a lot of what you say. And as I've said already, Hibs losing to Maribor and Celtic losing to Utrecht were both what are clearly unacceptable results. Both were seeded, and both should have progressed IMO.

However, the Odense thing I do disagree with. Odense finished 2nd in Denmark, Motherwell finished 5th in Scotland. We're similar size to Danes IIRC, and I think Motherwell winning would have been a pleasant surprise. Expecting them to have won is misguided IMO.


Overall, we don't consistently underperform. Sometimes individual clubs do... sometimes others over-perform.

Only 2 or 3 years ago we lauded Celtic (last 16 of the CL), Rangers (UC Final) and Aberdeen (UC KO rounds). Our fans memories are short and in many cases their expectations = wildly exaggerated. It's 2010. We're not big. We're not strong. We're not powerful.

Celtic and Rangers' european achievements in the last decade have been terrific, don't get me wrong. Two UEFA Cup Finals was quite brilliant for our nation.

In terms of Aberdeen, again the players did a great job but the brains behind that run was Jimmy Calderwood - a manager who has spent time in Holland broadening his football horizons. Might be something in that methinks.

What isn't in doubt, in my view, is that we are in decline and not really doing anything about it other than shrug our shoulders as we fall further down the pecking order.

I didn't 'expect' Motherwell to win and go through tonight, but by the same token, we, as a nation, shouldn't 'expect' them automatically to lose either. As much as we'd have celebrated victory over Odense, we should feel the disappointment just as much.

I expect an hysterical reaction in the media over the next couple of days but that is deeply unhelpful, as are some of the excuses. Of course, we must be realistic but we must balance that with being more demanding otherwise we won't get anywhere.

We need some measured analysis and that is our football is nowhere near good enough technically for the european, and international, stages. We don't respect possession of the ball, we don't have the correct mentality and we seem to prefer tall, physically strong players who can run all day to players with craft, skill and imagination who have limitations.

Until we address these core issues, we will never move forward. At any level.

[Supras]

southview, on 26 August 2010 - 23:30, said:

It's totally unacceptable that our second-biggest club, with a support base three times the size of Utrecht and probably a wage bill to match, is so completely outclassed and out-thought.

Until we can beat the Odenses of Europe, we will never make any progress. We are a third-rate football nation and falling further.

Third-rate yet paying first-rate prices at the turnstiles that is. How does that equate by the way?

Probably? You don't even know!

Third rate? In terms of our population class we are first rate. We can't expect to compete with nations ten times our size.

Quote

Our population has nothing to do with it IMO and is a convenient smokescreen for many. Slovenia has a population of around 2M and NK Maribor had only played two matches of their season yet still rattled Hibs good and proper.

Yeah, population has nothing to do with it. It's just a coincidence Brazil are good and Andorra are not, if Andorra really tried they could be up their with the best.

Maribor finished first in Slovenia, I reckon they would struggle badly against either of the OF.

Quote

I don't believe for one minute that we should be competing with the top sides, but I think we are entitled to feel that we have enough to see off teams who appear of a similar standing to our own. Shrugging our shoulders and saying 'well, we shouldn't expect to beat anybody' is the attitude of a loser and that's what we have become when it comes to football.

Why not? After all, population doesn't matter.

Uh, nobody is saying that though. If we lose to the Faroe Islands we should get hammered, if we lose to Sweden we should not. If our champions lose to a Cypriot team we will be embarrassed, if they lose to a Belgian side we should not. We should expect to beat nations smaller than ourselves, anything more than that is a bit of a bonus.

Quote

Why bother entering these tournaments if we don't think we can do well in them?

What?

Success is relative, nobody is suggesting we don't enter though. That would be stupid.

Quote

Nothing will be done of course. We will continue to play the same tired brand of industrial football and give the red card to anything fresh, innovative and new. The SFA will see our players being bought by English clubs and feel that is success. We must be doing something right, they'll say. It's a joke.

We could bring in millions of immigrants of West African descent. That could help. With our population constraints we do incredibly well, if we want to push on, increase the population...

Quote

*Forgot to add: I never saw Aberdeen's 5-1 hammering v Sigma Olomouc at Pittodrie. I'm sure that was pretty horrendous to view too.

The Czech Republic is also far larger than Scotland.

And, of course, Aberdeen recently defeated CL finalists Bayern Munich but why would anyone want to remember that? There's nothing more Scottish than self depreciation.

This post has been edited by Supras: 26 August 2010 - 23:55

[HibeeJibee]

The problem of course is that the tactics, technique and style of the Scottish game is not being put on the table for reform... Henry McLeish came out of his report calling for better 'youth development' -- and asking for the Government to put the equivalent of the entire public expenditure of the nation for a week, into building 20 training centres -- but nowhere was there explicit discussion of the style of play. + I described it when my club Hibs were put out heavily by Maribor. We were playing a different kind of football: an outdated style of tactics, with ill-equipped players.

The point is that facilities won't solve that.

However equally, even if we did sort things out, performances ain't going to improve that much... We'd need to improve by X, just to tread water basically. As other nations are improving too. And we'd never be able to achieve the success the media + supporters want.


There will be no great reform, anyway. There is no sign that professional clubs... or more importantly, their managers... want to change the style of football we play. The government is never going to give Henry McLeish his half-a-billion-pounds. Tinkering with league structure, winter breaks or so on will make no difference. We have to face up to what is realistic, and set that as our goal. At the moment we're missing that target, but a lack of perspective also.

The future of Scottish football is clear. We'll continue to decline gradually but in doing so will still punch above our weight. The decline will be due to the improvement of other nations, our own limitations, and is inevitable. We can help slow it. We can't prevent it.

You can't turn back glaciers. We're a small country with an impressive history. Now it's a mill-stone round our necks, clouding our judgement.

[Supras]

southview, on 26 August 2010 - 23:48, said:

We need some measured analysis and that is our football is nowhere near good enough technically for the european, and international, stages. We don't respect possession of the ball, we don't have the correct mentality and we seem to prefer tall, physically strong players who can run all day to players with craft, skill and imagination who have limitations.

Then why is our national team lacking in height and physical presence? This is often a cliche spouted in England and automatically applied to Scotland but look at our national team, where are all these tall powerful players?

Gordon - goalkeepers are always big.
Hutton - 6 foot right back?
Caldwell - Average height for a centre back
Berra - One of our larger players.
Wallace? - Under 6 foot.

Dorrans, Adam and Fletcher are all average height and Brown is a midget.

Up front Iwelumo is our only target man and he has what? 2, 3 caps? Miller is a midget, Boyd is slightly above average as is Fletcher but we're not packing our midfield or attack with big powerful players at all, in fact there is a clear lack of them.

I don't think it is really a case of us going backwards but rather other nations going forwards. With the collapse of the Soviet Union the footballing in the former Soviet Bloc have seen a massive increase in investment and this is what has pushed tiny nations like ourself out the loop. Of course, there are cultural and health reasons why less Scots are playing football but I think it is more a case of other nations improving and the grotesquely unfair qualification system for international tournaments.

Our club sides have been excellent in the past decade so I don't see any real problem there at all.

[craigkillie]

Djamolidine Abdoujaparov, on 26 August 2010 - 21:44, said:

The only Scottish player I can think of at the moment who has gone on to a higher level in the last couple of years is Danny Wilson, even then, he won't get a game in the first team for at least another seaon, I hope.

That's where we are struggling at the momet compared to where we used to be.

I guess, therefore, that we are suffering up here because of the amount of money in the English game nowadays.

I still blame Playstations for something, I can't remember what though, and for that reason, I'm out.

Steven Fletcher? James McCarthy? James McArthur? Aiden McGeady? Christophe Berra?

And not that much further back, Craig Gordon and Alan Hutton.

[southview]

Supras, on 26 August 2010 - 23:54, said:

Probably? You don't even know!

Third rate? In terms of our population class we are first rate. We can't expect to compete with nations ten times our size.

Well given that it isn't an exact science, I'll bet Utrecht's wage bill is way smaller than Celtic's. And we are a third-rate football nation. Population has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, population has nothing to do with it. It's just a coincidence Brazil are good and Andorra are not, if Andorra really tried they could be up their with the best.

You are being silly now and taking my point entirely out of context.

Maribor finished first in Slovenia, I reckon they would struggle badly against either of the OF.

They may do, then again, they may not. Fact is, they are a smaller club than most of those in the SPL yet put one of our teams in their place. Your argument here seems to be as long as the OF can beat them, it doesn't really matter.

Why not? After all, population doesn't matter.

Again, slightly silly. Population doesn't matter but finance does to a certain degree. I do not expect Scottish sides to beat the likes of Real Madrid et al but I don't think its unreasonable to think we can beat the likes of Odense, FC Vaduz, Sigma Olomouc, NK Maribor...

Uh, nobody is saying that though. If we lose to the Faroe Islands we should get hammered, if we lose to Sweden we should not. If our champions lose to a Cypriot team we will be embarrassed, if they lose to a Belgian side we should not. We should expect to beat nations smaller than ourselves, anything more than that is a bit of a bonus.

This chain of thought suggests you are content in the knowledge that we should never again expect to enjoy a decent european run from a club or two and, more importantly, should expect to fail to qualify for another WC and Euros. After all, we should only expect to beat smaller nations. That won't get us far in the Euro 2012 qualifying campaign, or any other for that matter.

What?

Success is relative, nobody is suggesting we don't enter though. That would be stupid.

I simply fail to see the positives in rolling up and expecting to be beaten all the time.

We could bring in millions of immigrants of West African descent. That could help. With our population constraints we do incredibly well, if we want to push on, increase the population...

Not buying the population argument.

The Czech Republic is also far larger than Scotland.

And, of course, Aberdeen recently defeated CL finalists Bayern Munich but why would anyone want to remember that? There's nothing more Scottish than self depreciation.

I addressed the Aberdeen UEFA Cup run in an earlier post. It was a fine achievement.

And so what if Czech Republic is bigger? Sigma Olomouc are certainly no bigger than Aberdeen yet hammered them 8-1 on aggregate. Is that an acceptable result in your book?

[AllanJM]

HibeeJibee I'm actually a little confused by your stance on this. You seem to be saying that our acceptance that we're not good enough is part of the problem but also seem to accept that we shouldn;t expect to be able to do any better. Sorry if I've got that wrong but I can't be arsed reading through everything again. If we really don't believe we can get better we should just give up now.

On to the discussion at hand and for me the main problem is simply that playing football just doesn't seem to have the same appeal it used to for kids. When I was young (and I'm only 30) I played for at least 2-3 hours every day. I can't remember the last time I saw kids kicking a ball about. I'm not saying they don't (of course there are plenty of youth teams) but there seems to be less football played therefore we are picking from a smaller pool.

Then the kids who do play football start to lose interest when other things come into the mix. Suddenly going out to drink cider on a friday night seems more appealing. Now again of course this isn't universal and I'm sure it's not new but it's certainly more prevalent in my opinion.

Finally the kids who do play aren't being coached correctly for modern football (again not in all cases I'm sure) and that continues right up to adulthood.

Now unlike others I actually believe that alot of clubs have seen the light with regards to my last point and it is being put right now. However, it will take years still before we really see the benefit. It may get worse before it gets better but I do believe it will.

[CaleyStan]

I was lucky enough to find good streams for both United matches and last week's Motherwell game in Denmark. What i saw was relatively small Scottish teams punching above their weight in European competition by appreciating the importance of possession and patience. Celtic let Scotland down tonight (for those of us who care about the coefficient) but they've done their bit in the past few years (has everyone forgotten that Strachan's Celtic made the last 16 of the CL in consecutive years recently?).

We're left with one, completely objectionable, club in Europe at the end of August. That is upsetting but it shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has watched our results for the past 20 years or so. This is who we are.

This post has been edited by CaleyStan: 27 August 2010 - 05:33