[Colin M]

Didn't we offer McAusland a contract? I know he probably wouldn't have become a first choice anyway (and perhaps with good reason if he's not getting a game in the First), but if so then Gus wanted to keep him and he wasn't binned.

[flyingscot]

Law Stud, on 16 March 2010 - 20:28, said:

If you go to Ikea you'll notice that there are different grades of pillow. Cheap ones have hardly any substance, offer little support and they aren't very good for suffocating. Gilmour is clearly too cheap to buy a decent pillow....

Jeeze your starting to sound like Eric Cantona.

[Captain_Sensible]

btb, on 16 March 2010 - 21:01, said:

McAusland or Innes - you may be right but it all fits the pattern of GM not trusting young players.

He was proven correct in not trusting McAusland though.

Quote

You can't absolve MacPherson of all responsibility for the lack of young players coming through,

Why not? He doesn't run the Pro Youth set up.

The Pro Youth set up starts from Under 8s. That's when Conor Ramsay started out with St. Mirren. He was with St. Mirren before Gsu Macpherson arrived at the club - yet he's still only 16!

Its actually worth noting that David Barron wasn't a product of the Pro Youth set up either - along with McGinn! He was signed by Gus & Andy after Partick Thistle freed him! And as I mentioned, McGinn signed from a Boys club and the youth staff wanted to release him! It was Gus who stepped in and signed him!

Chris Smith is the only half decent player to emerge from Pro Youth in Gus' tenure at St. Mirren - and he's not even very good!

Quote

worse can our U-19 strikers be than Dargo 2 goals so far this season and none since since October.

Paul Quinn was the best striker from last season's U19s. He went to Queens Park on loan this season and scored 2 goals in 9 games in the Third Division. He has since gone to Stenhousemuir and failed to start any of the 6 games since he joined.

There is no point throwing in young players if they are not good enough just because they are young!

Quote

I still say that one success (McGinn) and one maybe (Barron) is not a good record for youth development since we reached the SPL.

No, I agree, its terrible - particlarly since neither is a product of our Pro Youth set up!

But rather than blame Gus for this fans should actually be pitying him for having to work without having a decent youth set up!

[Captain_Sensible]

Law Stud, on 16 March 2010 - 20:43, said:

I'm not sure if I buy most of that Captain but even if I did look at the attitude amongst a large section of the support. Have St Mirren even come close to selling out their 14,000 allocation for the cup final? From where I sit, which is admittedly absolutely no where near Paisley or New St Mirren Park, it doesn't look good. Previously loyal fans are disaffected. Season ticket holders are saying they won't be renewing. Even you have claimed over the last few months that you've been staying away.

St Mirren certainly look in danger of getting to the stage where no-one cares whether they play or not, survive or not, or win or not.

Yet crowds are better than they have been for 30 years, we've reached our highest league position in 20 years, our first major final in 23 years, our healthiest financial position in over 20 years, have one of only 4 exclusive training grounds in the country and a brand new stadium.

Yes, I can see where you're coming from.

[chico]

flyingscot, on 16 March 2010 - 21:37, said:

Jeeze your starting to sound like Eric Cantona.

cantona had a point.

[Div]

Law Stud, on 16 March 2010 - 20:43, said:

I'm not sure if I buy most of that Captain but even if I did look at the attitude amongst a large section of the support. Have St Mirren even come close to selling out their 14,000 allocation for the cup final?

We have sold 12,000 tickets to date. Just six sections remaining with spare seats.

 ticket_latest.JPG (50.07K)
Number of downloads: 29

Not sure we'll sell all 14,000 but we shouldn't be too far off.

For a few different reasons I'm certain if it wasn't Rangers we were playing we'd have sold them all by now.

Where are you sitting Stuart or has the Adidas CEO not dropped off your last minute comps yet ?

[Law Stud]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 21:41, said:

Yet crowds are better than they have been for 30 years, we've reached our highest league position in 20 years, our first major final in 23 years, our healthiest financial position in over 20 years, have one of only 4 exclusive training grounds in the country and a brand new stadium.

Yes, I can see where you're coming from.

11th isn't your highest position in 20 years though - you managed 10th 2 seasons ago.

[Law Stud]

Div, on 16 March 2010 - 21:50, said:

We have sold 12,000 tickets to date. Just six sections remaining with spare seats.

ticket_latest.JPG

Not sure we'll sell all 14,000 but we shouldn't be too far off.

For a few different reasons I'm certain if it wasn't Rangers we were playing we'd have sold them all by now.

Where are you sitting Stuart or has the Adidas CEO not dropped off your last minute comps yet ?

I'm not going. I would imagine I'd be traveling back from Sunderland when your match kicks off.

[Captain_Sensible]

Law Stud, on 16 March 2010 - 21:59, said:

11th isn't your highest position in 20 years though - you managed 10th 2 seasons ago.

That 10th position happened under the current BoD and manager didn't it?

It was the highest finish in 20 years wasn't it?

This post has been edited by Captain_Sensible: 16 March 2010 - 22:28

[Tubbs]

Saints sure like to dish it out (fair enough), but never more so than to their own.

Quality thread.

[pozbaird]

The only thing I want to add to this debate is that (like the Black & White Army and St Mirren Official Website forums) it astounds me the sheer amount of people who come on and make statements like "Unbelievable that some St Mirren fans want to force out a BOD who have already said they want to get out anyway..." etc, etc.

I know the guy who mooted the idea, and he is neither an idiot nor a troublemaker. Whether you agree with him or not is up to each individual, but to try and help out the people who seem unable to actually grasp the reasoning behind Gary even suggesting a quiet protest...

• The idea of the protest is NOT to belittle what the BOD have done in relation to wiping out the debt and the stadium move, nor any of the other good stuff achieved in their tenure

• The idea of the protest is NOT to try and force out a BOD who want out anyway.

• The idea of the protest (should you wish to join in with it) is that having said they want out, the BOD don't have a buyer on the horizon (unless anyone knows differently), so the situation is that they could be in charge of the club for a good while yet. The current Chairman himself publicly admitted that they were done, finished, out of ideas - and they are spilt into two factions. THIS is the BOD that continues to be in charge, and as I say could be for a while yet. There is a distinct lack of leadership at the top of the club, a definite lack of ideas in many areas. I have personally had many dealings with the club on various projects that lead me to form the following words into a coherent sentence: Brewery. Couldn't. Bevvy Session. Organise. In. A. It worries the person who started the idea, and it worries blokes like me - the fact that two members of our current BOD could be the ones making important decisons for a good while yet as we either head into another SPL campaign, or a return to Division 1. At times this season I have been critical of Gus MacPherson, as many Saints fans have, but I now realise that both Gus and Andy are doing the best they can with what they've got, while pissing against a Force 10 gale of increasing indifference and inactivity.


To sum up - the idea behind the protest is NOT to oust anyone (two people anyway) any quicker, nor is it to knock them for their overall record down the years - it is to register a quiet protest at the way we perceive the club to be going as we stand here and now, and to hope that until they CAN sell up and move on, they TRY to dig up some enthusiasm, and try to run the place a bit more professionally, and to give the staff (of which there aren't many full-timers) a fair go, and to try and help the management team make a fist of next season - no matter which division we are in.

Now - there's absolutely no wrong or right to the protest idea. Each fan can decide for themselves if they are happy with the current BOD in March 2010 and beyond, and each fan can decide for themselves if they want to wear our original colours or not. It might be 2 fans, 10 fans, 100 fans who join in, who knows? It's a democracy we live in, so do whatever you want. I just don't think it's right to say that anyone who DOES decide to join in with it is an ungrateful barsteward who should be shot for not appreciating what Mr Gilmour & Co have done in the past - as I've tried to say in a semi-intelligent manner, that's not what it's about.

[btb]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 21:39, said:

He was proven correct in not trusting McAusland though.

I'm not conceeding on McAusland/Innes yet.

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 21:39, said:

Why not? He doesn't run the Pro Youth set up.

Are you saying it operates in a vacuum?

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 21:39, said:

No, I agree, its terrible - particlarly since neither is a product of our Pro Youth set up!

But rather than blame Gus for this fans should actually be pitying him for having to work without having a decent youth set up!

Well I think he should be able to do better at integrating young players into what is not a particularly successful side rather than just offering old lags a final season/season and a half before they're boiled down for glue.

[Captain_Sensible]

A well put point pozbaird.

To be honest, I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes but I can imagine its not pleasant. It would be good if whatever directors are desperate to get out could sell their shares but I fear that there isn't a buyer out there.

[Captain_Sensible]

A well put point pozbaird.

To be honest, I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes but I can imagine its not pleasant. It would be good if whatever directors are desperate to get out could sell their shares but I fear that there isn't a buyer out there.

[Colin M]

pozbaird, on 16 March 2010 - 22:50, said:

The only thing I want to add to this debate is that (like the Black & White Army and St Mirren Official Website forums) it astounds me the sheer amount of people who come on and make statements like "Unbelievable that some St Mirren fans want to force out a BOD who have already said they want to get out anyway..." etc, etc.

I know the guy who mooted the idea, and he is neither an idiot nor a troublemaker. Whether you agree with him or not is up to each individual, but to try and help out the people who seem unable to actually grasp the reasoning behind Gary even suggesting a quiet protest...

• The idea of the protest is NOT to belittle what the BOD have done in relation to wiping out the debt and the stadium move, nor any of the other good stuff achieved in their tenure

• The idea of the protest is NOT to try and force out a BOD who want out anyway.

• The idea of the protest (should you wish to join in with it) is that having said they want out, the BOD don't have a buyer on the horizon (unless anyone knows differently), so the situation is that they could be in charge of the club for a good while yet. The current Chairman himself publicly admitted that they were done, finished, out of ideas - and they are spilt into two factions. THIS is the BOD that continues to be in charge, and as I say could be for a while yet. There is a distinct lack of leadership at the top of the club, a definite lack of ideas in many areas. I have personally had many dealings with the club on various projects that lead me to form the following words into a coherent sentence: Brewery. Couldn't. Bevvy Session. Organise. In. A. It worries the person who started the idea, and it worries blokes like me - the fact that two members of our current BOD could be the ones making important decisons for a good while yet as we either head into another SPL campaign, or a return to Division 1. At times this season I have been critical of Gus MacPherson, as many Saints fans have, but I now realise that both Gus and Andy are doing the best they can with what they've got, while pissing against a Force 10 gale of increasing indifference and inactivity.


To sum up - the idea behind the protest is NOT to oust anyone (two people anyway) any quicker, nor is it to knock them for their overall record down the years - it is to register a quiet protest at the way we perceive the club to be going as we stand here and now, and to hope that until they CAN sell up and move on, they TRY to dig up some enthusiasm, and try to run the place a bit more professionally, and to give the staff (of which there aren't many full-timers) a fair go, and to try and help the management team make a fist of next season - no matter which division we are in.

Now - there's absolutely no wrong or right to the protest idea. Each fan can decide for themselves if they are happy with the current BOD in March 2010 and beyond, and each fan can decide for themselves if they want to wear our original colours or not. It might be 2 fans, 10 fans, 100 fans who join in, who knows? It's a democracy we live in, so do whatever you want. I just don't think it's right to say that anyone who DOES decide to join in with it is an ungrateful barsteward who should be shot for not appreciating what Mr Gilmour & Co have done in the past - as I've tried to say in a semi-intelligent manner, that's not what it's about.

Has there been any attempt to get a dialogue with the BOD on this?

Will they know what the protest is about?

[vikingTON]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 23:03, said:

To be honest, I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes but I can imagine its not pleasant. It would be good if whatever directors are desperate to get out could sell their shares but I fear that there isn't a buyer out there.

...But Ric categorically assured us all that Ajax and several Far Eastern consortiums were greedily eying up the club?

[port-ton]

This is the beauty of football rivalry. Sometimes these things just write themselves. I needn't say any more.

[Captain_Sensible]

btb, on 16 March 2010 - 23:02, said:

I'm not conceeding on McAusland/Innes yet.

I can't see how you can't concede!

McAusland lost his place in a mid table First Division side to Marvin Andrews and has since fallen further down the pecking order and is 4th choice centre half and doesn't even make the bench now!

The guys ahead of him at QoS are 32 year old David Lilley, 34 year old Marvin Andrews and a 23 year old defender they signed from Stirling Albion!

If he's not even good enough to make first choice reserve centre half for a mid table First Division side you surely can't believe he's good enough for the SPL can you?

Quote

Are you saying it operates in a vacuum?

The Pro Youth set up predates Gus Macpherson. Its run seperately from the first team so as the club gets continuity and is not disrupted by changes of managers. That's the way it runs at other clubs as well.

Youth football isn't like it was years ago when clubs signed boys in their teens on S Forms and managers got in trialists from the juniors & juveniles in their late teens. That very rarely happens these days (although McGinn did arrive late as I mentioned while Barron was signed on a free).

Senior clubs now begin scouting players from a very very young age. I know of one player St. Mirren currently have one boy who has been with them since the age of 4. They were fighting with Rangers last year over an 8 year old (Rangers won). We were also fighting Rangers this summer for a 10 year old who had been with St. Miren for 3 years already (St. Mirren won this one). The club has an army of coaches running the various sides from U8 level upwards and as I mentioned they are scouting players from an extremely young age.

It takes a long, long time for a set up like that to bear fruit. As I also mentioned earlier, Conor Ramsay has been with the club since U8 level and was with the club before Gus arrived. He's now only just 16 and is the best player to come through the system so far (so I've been told by a couple ofthe youth coaches).

Gus Macpherson doesn't get involved with scouting these youngsters - that's the responsibility of the Pro Youth set up. Even in the 70s and early 80s when the club was bringing through so many great young players (but not from a Pro Youth set up), it was the scouts who were bringing these players to the club. It would be up to the manager to ultimately decided which players were good enough to be offered professional contracts - just as happens today.

Stephen McGinn is an example. He actually didn't come through the Pro Youth ranks but was signed from a Boys club. The head coach didn't rate him and wanted to free him. Gus had the final say and he decided to sign him. That's the way it works. The Pro Youth set up find the players, coach and develop them and once they get to a certain age its up top the manager whether they go any further.

Quote

Well I think he should be able to do better at integrating young players into what is not a particularly successful side rather than just offering old lags a final season/season and a half before they're boiled down for glue.

I would agree with you if we actually had any good young players ready for the first team. You can't just throw in young players for the sake of it if the older players are actually better! Marc McAusland is the perfect example. His move to QoS has proven that he's not good enough and Gus was correct in not offering him a better contract. Chris Innes was a cheap signing and he's done a good job. He's even chipped in with some goals!

[itzdrk]

buy sum rangers merch at the final

should be you all sorted for your red and blue

[Davie Bhoy]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 14:25, said:

I've been reading this guff on blackandwhitearmy.com and it really does beggar belief.

As the saying goes, "What have the Romans ever done for us?"

Now bearing in mind that the current BoD took over in 1998 when we were £3 million in debt, had a ground which was beginning to fall to pieces and were staring relegation to the Second Division in the face, this is what they have achieved:

1) Underwritten a share issue in 1998 which was largely ignored by the supporters to save the club from going under.

2) Underwritten a share issue in 1999 which was largely ignored by the supporters to build a new stand to allow us into the SPL.

3) Lent the club £650k to pay of Bill Barr and fund a planning application to turn Love Street into a supermarket.

4) Secured planning permission for a supermarket at Love Street against the recommendation of the planners and against the Local Plan.

5) Sold Love Street to Tesco for £12m.

6) Built a brand new stadium.

7) Cleared all the debts.

8 ) Built our own exclusive training ground, one of only 4 clubs in Scotland to have one.

9) Overseen a fourth successive season in the top flight for the first time in almost a quarter of a century.

10) Overseen us reaching our highest league finish in 20 years.

11) Overseen us reaching our first major final in 23 years and our first League Cup Final in 55 years.

It would actually be more appropriate if the BoD turned out in scarlet and blue scarves in protest at some of our lunatic supporters!

Hate saying this but I totaly agree with you on this one.

Think some clown has looked at the Man U thing and has had visions of being a Fan rep getting some time in the spotlight and getting himself a wee profile.

Sounds ridiculous given that apart from the league situation, everything else seems to be going well at the club.

If anything they should be protesting at the stay away fans who will be out in force at the final this weekend, but who can't see fit to support the club the rest of the time.

[btb]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 23:25, said:

I would agree with you if we actually had any good young players ready for the first team. You can't just throw in young players for the sake of it if the older players are actually better! Marc McAusland is the perfect example. His move to QoS has proven that he's not good enough and Gus was correct in not offering him a better contract. Chris Innes was a cheap signing and he's done a good job. He's even chipped in with some goals!

Not better than Craig Dargo (who was my original example) - no goals since October could you do any worse? Erm........only if you're Andy Dorman.

When we played Dundee Utd. this season Robb was giving their RB a roasting so Utd's manager subbed him after approx. 30 minutes with a teenager Smith who hasn't played since so obviously he's not good enough for a regular place in Utd's first team but he was good enough to come on and change the course of that game and help them win the three points - you can't see that happening with GM, he'd never make a tactical substitution after 30 minutes, never make the first tactical substition when the scores were level and 60 minutes is probably more game time than all of our youth players have had combined this season. As GM has already written off our current U-19's as not good enough for the SPL it's impossible to see a similar scenario happening in our favour.

This post has been edited by btb: 17 March 2010 - 01:14

[Davie Bhoy]

iron mike python, on 16 March 2010 - 15:07, said:

Thanks for posting a fair comparison between two very similar clubs. It's not often I get to see something positive about my club. On Black and White Army.com some of the supporters are acting as if they are against St Mirren getting to the final. One supporter on there was actually getting angry at fairweather supporters for showing up to the final!

Now f**k off back to the first division forum, You'll be having delusions of grandeur which is what created this stinking mess.

And so he/she should. If you have 12,000 fans turning up as it stands, as has been stated on this site then it's only right that a supporter who goes most games questions were these fans are every other week. Why don't these fans turn up every week and fill your ground. Money through the gates is still the biggest income for a club.

These fans though put nothing into your club...but when a final comes around they come out the woodwork, dust down the club coloured funny wig, buy the cakes decorated in the towns bakers etc and bleat on about how great it is for the town. Once the final is done these ahem...diehards, disappear never to be seen again until the next big occasion comes along.

If clowns like yourself stopped defending them and the clubs request for as many tickets as poss for games like this then maybe they'd see that in order to get a ticket for a big game in the clubs season, they'd have to have earned it by turning up to several of the home games.

As it is people will bring along the kids, mother-in-law, their good friends from other countries and the local lollipop man for the day out. Still....so long as your not worried about the bigger picture then it's all good eh!!

[Law Stud]

Davie Bhoy, on 17 March 2010 - 01:05, said:

And so he/she should. If you have 12,000 fans turning up as it stands, as has been stated on this site then it's only right that a supporter who goes most games questions were these fans are every other week. Why don't these fans turn up every week and fill your ground. Money through the gates is still the biggest income for a club.

These fans though put nothing into your club...but when a final comes around they come out the woodwork, dust down the club coloured funny wig, buy the cakes decorated in the towns bakers etc and bleat on about how great it is for the town. Once the final is done these ahem...diehards, disappear never to be seen again until the next big occasion comes along.

If clowns like yourself stopped defending them and the clubs request for as many tickets as poss for games like this then maybe they'd see that in order to get a ticket for a big game in the clubs season, they'd have to have earned it by turning up to several of the home games.

As it is people will bring along the kids, mother-in-law, their good friends from other countries and the local lollipop man for the day out. Still....so long as your not worried about the bigger picture then it's all good eh!!

That might be a fair point if there was any danger whatsoever of this match being a sell out. As it stands though St Mirren can't even sell out their original allocation and they were assured they could apply for more if necessary.

I think it's more of a disgrace that this is yet another National Final where the game is being played to a less than capacity audience.

[The Real Zippy]

Law Stud, on 17 March 2010 - 07:46, said:

That might be a fair point if there was any danger whatsoever of this match being a sell out. As it stands though St Mirren can't even sell out their original allocation and they were assured they could apply for more if necessary.

I think it's more of a disgrace that this is yet another National Final where the game is being played to a less than capacity audience.

12,000 sold and still four days to the final Stuart

Could see your point if we demanded half the capacity of Hampden, got it, and then found ourselves with thousands of tickets we couldn't shift a la Dundee in the 2003 Scottish Cup Final.

You might want to cast your eyes at the blue and white mob in Govan, who probably can't be arsed turning up for what is, for them, a diddy cup final.

[Law Stud]

I've done the bit about St Mirren's failure in the Pro Youth department to death. It's quite clear that the problem lies within the system, whether it's in scouting or in the coaching. The problem isn't unique to St Mirren either. I've said it before that I think the concept of taking young boys into clubs at the age of 10 and banning them from playing for local clubs or playing school football is utterly ridiculous. I've talked about how my experience has been of clubs releasing kids at the age of 11 or 12 because they aren't tall enough. How clubs fail to realise that children going through puberty will have phases where they fall behind their contemporaries physically before making it back up in a growth spurt.

In saying that though successfully building a youth team is a numbers game and St Mirren should be like Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs (Hibs have stopped it now) and have groups that work and train in Lanarkshire as well as their current group in Ralston.