[btb]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 15:51, said:

Now bearing in mind that we have the second lowest gates, second lowest turnover and second lowest wage budget,

This argument would hold more weight for me if we hadn't paid off two of our small First Team pool (inluding our highest paid member (?) Camara) during the transfer window without them troubling the SPL statisticians. Add to that Alan Johnston signed in October and yet to play a full 90 minutes (like Gilerao last season). To revisit GM's record with youth perhaps if he'd had more faith in Barron we could have brought in a LB instead of Ross.

Overall while I'd say GM's record over the past three years is adequate he's made his share of errrors.

[Helpma]

I fully support this protest, and I will be wearing my scarf upside down until St Mirren get the billionaire Arab backers that they so clearly deserve. Sack the Board!

[btb]

forkboy, on 16 March 2010 - 17:51, said:

Surely it's daft to expect Gus to work with something he doesn't have?

How do you, I or the 90+% of Saints fans who don't attend U-19 games know the quality of what's there?

forkboy, on 16 March 2010 - 17:51, said:

I'm sure if he had quality youth to work with he would use them.

Bullock for Smith, Ross for Barron, McAusland (20-y-o) pushed out to QotS to be replaced by Innes (33) a first division player last season - there's three examples to the contrary.

This post has been edited by btb: 16 March 2010 - 18:17

[houston_bud]

btb, on 16 March 2010 - 18:15, said:

How do you, I or the 90+% of Saints fans who don't attend U-19 games know the quality of what's there?



Bullock for Smith, Ross for Barron, McAusland (20-y-o) pushed out to QotS to be replaced by Innes (33) a first division player last season - there's three examples to the contrary.

your arguement makes no sense. are you claiming gus has youth players good enough but isnt giving them a chance? if so you have just cited two youth players (barron and smith) who he did give a chance. mcausland, i dont know how good he is, probably need to ask some qos fans that.

mcginn is another young player mcpherson brought into the squad. looking at all the youth players that were released they are all playing (mcausland aside) 2nd div or lower.

[Broccoli Dog]

protestants waving blue and red scarves what a novel idea for scottish football

[T_S_A_R]

why do saints fans think their youth system has been so poor? even if your youth system isn't bringing through quality it still can be handy in providing cheap squad players which allows funds to be directed towards bringing in a few quality players which can be the difference in the spl.

[Captain_Sensible]

btb, on 16 March 2010 - 18:15, said:

How do you, I or the 90+% of Saints fans who don't attend U-19 games know the quality of what's there?

Indeed, yet its incredible how so many fans call for U19 players they've never seen to be thrown into the first team!

Quote

Bullock for Smith, Ross for Barron, McAusland (20-y-o) pushed out to QotS to be replaced by Innes (33) a first division player last season - there's three examples to the contrary.

When Gus signed Tony Bullock, Chris Smith was the only fit keeper we had since Hinchcliffe got injured at the start of that season. Until Bullock signed we had no sub keeper on the bench. The supporters had been crying out for Gus to sign an experienced keeper at that point to provide competition / cover. Apart from that, I've never rated Smith personally - prone to far too many errors.

Gus then got rid of Bullock and brought in Mark Howard - another young keeper with only a handful of first team games behind games - to provide competition / cover for Smith.

David Barron was injured at the start of last season and didn't reappear until late in the season. Gus also had Miranda at left back. David Barron was actually a central defender in the reserves and is a versatile player. Jack Ross is an out and out right back. I didn't see the signing of Ross as not having confidence in Barron, particularly as he was injured. You need a squad of players.

As for Marc McAusland, he lost his place in the side when QoS signed Marvin Andrews. Even when Andrews hasn't been available he's still not been getting a game. He's now 4th choice central defender for a mid table First Division side. Gus' decision to let him go and sign Chris Innes - who has been excellent - has been vindicated.

This post has been edited by Captain_Sensible: 16 March 2010 - 19:00

[Captain_Sensible]

btb, on 16 March 2010 - 17:43, said:

It's true none of the young players released have gone onto better things (yet) but I would say GM's record in this area is poor.

In what way has it been poor though?

He's played everyone that's been good enough and no-one he has released has proved to be good enough. What more could he have done?

Stephen McGinn is actually an interesting case in point. He arrived at St. Mirren via a Boys Club rather than progressing through the Pro Youth ranks. The youth coaches decided he wasn't good enough and were set to release him until Gus personally stepped in, having watched McGinn in the U19s, and signed him.

[Reynard]

T_S_A_R, on 16 March 2010 - 18:48, said:

why do saints fans think their youth system has been so poor? even if your youth system isn't bringing through quality it still can be handy in providing cheap squad players which allows funds to be directed towards bringing in a few quality players which can be the difference in the spl.

Lack of investment during the first division era. The club was simply trying to exist at all back then and lobbing money into a youth policy wasn't a high priority. Motherwell have had the benefit of a long stretch in the top division which helps channel wedge into the youth system. Even after it went tits up and you went into administration you still had the benefit of the kids coming through that had already been in the system for a number of years.

St.Mirren have changed the whole youth set up in the past few years but there is a time lag with a youth policy. A time lag of maybe as much as five or six years. There are some good kids in the system just now but a lot of them are 14/15 etc. Some of them are good at their age group and may or may not make it as a first team player. Time will tell. A lot of it is down to sheer luck at times.

The club has done as much as it can to change things for the better. Time will tell if they managed it or not.

[btb]

houston_bud, on 16 March 2010 - 18:36, said:

your arguement makes no sense. are you claiming gus has youth players good enough but isnt giving them a chance? if so you have just cited two youth players (barron and smith) who he did give a chance. mcausland, i dont know how good he is, probably need to ask some qos fans that.

mcginn is another young player mcpherson brought into the squad. looking at all the youth players that were released they are all playing (mcausland aside) 2nd div or lower.

Barron and Smith were replaced by journeymen players at the first opportunity. Where is Smith now - 3rd choice and injured? Where would Barron be if GM hadn't made a total fuck-up of the LB situation? McGinn is the one guy to have made his debut under MacPherson who has gone on to better things - one guy in six years!

It's one of those what-if arguments but maybe if MacPherson had shown a bit more faith in the U-19 guys they wouldn't be languishing where they are or out of the game completely. Guy at my work's son was released by Rangers at U-17 level at the end of last season, Saints offered him a contract but he choose to go to Queens Park - I'd like to think the advice I gave his dad contributed to that.

This post has been edited by btb: 16 March 2010 - 19:41

[chico]

Bugger it. I'd like some wins in the SPL, but paying for another scarf??

This post has been edited by chico: 16 March 2010 - 19:38

[T_S_A_R]

Reynard, on 16 March 2010 - 19:33, said:

Lack of investment during the first division era. The club was simply trying to exist at all back then and lobbing money into a youth policy wasn't a high priority. Motherwell have had the benefit of a long stretch in the top division which helps channel wedge into the youth system. Even after it went tits up and you went into administration you still had the benefit of the kids coming through that had already been in the system for a number of years.

St.Mirren have changed the whole youth set up in the past few years but there is a time lag with a youth policy. A time lag of maybe as much as five or six years. There are some good kids in the system just now but a lot of them are 14/15 etc. Some of them are good at their age group and may or may not make it as a first team player. Time will tell. A lot of it is down to sheer luck at times.

The club has done as much as it can to change things for the better. Time will tell if they managed it or not.

that makes sense. the captain seems to rate the pro youth set up at st mirren so it might well improve soon.

as you say there's a time lag with these things. the same is true with the national team, we're still suffering from a malaise in youth development on a national scale 10-15 years ago.

[Duncan Freemason]

I think a great deal of it is to do with the direction in which your travelling (or at least, the perception). In Falkirk's case, there was a whole lot of trepidation and maybe a little expectation that Eddie May was going to become one of the bright young things, and create something sparkling this season. Of course, in the cold light of day, he created nothing, and the inevitable has happened.
St Mirren this season were looking at establishing themselves in their new home, debt free, and were picking up a few players along the way. While not expected to be near the top four, there was some belief (among non SM supporters too), that theis year might see them as realistic top six contenders. There was a real sense that better times had arrived. Now that they have slowly sunk towards the bottom end of the table, there's bound to be a bit of frustration and irritation that it seems to be more of the same old failings. Falkirk are now all that separates Gus from his P45, and the four point cushion St Mirren have should be enough to save the day. I would be surprised if my lot make any dent in it between now and the end of the season.
As to protests, I have to agree with the majority on here. St Mirren and Falkirk have both come a long way these past six or seven years when viewed in the context of other similar clubs such as Dunfermline, Partick, Raith Rovers and Morton. Hell, it wasn't that long ago that Dumbarton were plying their trade in the top flight. It's really hard to understand a protest about the running of a club that is the black, in the SPL, and have taken up residence in a spanking new stadium.

This post has been edited by Duncan Freemason: 16 March 2010 - 19:53

[btb]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 18:54, said:

When Gus signed Tony Bullock, Chris Smith was the only fit keeper we had since Hinchcliffe got injured at the start of that season. Until Bullock signed we had no sub keeper on the bench. The supporters had been crying out for Gus to sign an experienced keeper at that point to provide competition / cover. Apart from that, I've never rated Smith personally - prone to far too many errors.

You choose him as an exemple of GM giving youth a chance but it still remains a fact that he was binned for an experienced journeyman at the first opportunity.

Gus then got rid of Bullock and brought in Mark Howard - another young keeper with only a handful of first team games behind games - to provide competition / cover for Smith.

.............and subsequently replaced him with a 30+ keeper from the first division.

David Barron was injured at the start of last season and didn't reappear until late in the season. Gus also had Miranda at left back. David Barron was actually a central defender in the reserves and is a versatile player. Jack Ross is an out and out right back. I didn't see the signing of Ross as not having confidence in Barron, particularly as he was injured. You need a squad of players.

David Barron was on the bench for the first two games of last season and if we're going to bring injuries into it what about Brighton, Dargo and Robb who have all spent large parts of their Saints careers out injured despite all of them having a history of injuries prior to signing for us. The point is we have two competent RB's and no-one at LB, another RB shouldn't have been a top priority.

As for Marc McAusland, he lost his place in the side when QoS signed Marvin Andrews. Even when Andrews hasn't been available he's still not been getting a game. He's now 4th choice central defender for a mid table First Division side. Gus' decision to let him go and sign Chris Innes - who has been excellent - has been vindicated.

Innes has started about half the games available to us and had started an even smaller percentage before we switched to three central defenders. He's 33 and currently out injured. What are the chances of him being with us next season - probably quite good actually! Oh, and I bet he's being paid more than was offered to McAusland!

Camara and Wyness?
Gilerao and Johnston?

I take it you're conceding these signings were all failures.

This post has been edited by btb: 16 March 2010 - 20:09

[Law Stud]

Scarlet and blue scarfs.....what a load of shite. I take it the guy proposing the protest has access to a place where these scarfs can be sourced cheaply and flogged on at profit.....for their own personal gain.

I predicted 10 years ago that Gilmour would kill the club softly. He's achieved that. The team are debt free and playing in a new stadium but who gives a f**k anymore. It's all just incredibly dull. f**k changing the colour of scarfs though - just don't go back. Trust me, it's better for you.

[Div]

Law Stud, on 16 March 2010 - 20:10, said:

I predicted 10 years ago that Gilmour would kill the club softly. He's achieved that.

Law Stud, on 16 March 2010 - 20:10, said:

The team are debt free and playing in a new stadium.

It sure is one very soft kill he's going for isn't it

[Captain_Sensible]

btb, on 16 March 2010 - 19:54, said:

You choose him as an exemple of GM giving youth a chance but it still remains a fact that he was binned for an experienced journeyman at the first opportunity.

But he wasn't binned. Smith was chosen ahead of Bullock at the start of the following season and Bullock was the one who was eventually binned.

But Smith isn't even any good! He's a complete liability! I'm glad that Gus has signed Paul Gallacher!

But the point is that Gus was WILLING to give him a run in the team.

Quote

David Barron was on the bench for the first game of last season and if we're going to bring injuries into it what about Brighton, Dargo and Robb who have all spent large parts of their Saints careers out injured despite all of them having a history of injuries prior to signing for us. The point is we have two competent RB's and no-one at LB, another RB shouldn't have been a top priority.

Okay, you are right, Barron was on the bench.

We had a left back last season, Franco Miranda. David Barron is not a natural right back so signing a recognised right back made sense. And David Barron isn't exactly Steve Clarke!

On the point of playing a right footer at left back, I;ll go back to the point I've made many times before. St. Mirren operated for most of the 80s without a left footed left back. The 87 cup winning side had a right footed left back, as did the 59 cup winning side. Steve Clarke spent his first season for St. Mirren at left back. Aberdeen won the league and European Cup Winners Cup with right footed Doug Rougvie at left back. Dundee United operated for the most successful 15 years of their history with a right footed left back in Maurice Malpas. Motherwell won the Scottish Cup with a right footed left back as captain, Tom Boyd. Boyd won more than 70 caps for Scotland as a right footed left back. Denis Irwin won a host of honours for Manchester United as a right footed left back. John Greig played many games for Rangers as a right footed left back, as did Danny McGrain.

Rant over!

Quote

Innes has started less than half the games available to us and had started an even smaller percentage before we switched to three central defenders. He's 33 and currently out injured. What are the chances of him being with us next season - probably quite good actually! Oh, and I bet he's being paid more than was offered to McAusland!

How many games did McAusland start before he left? None! He's now 4th choice defender for a mid table First Division side - he's just not good enough!

Chris Innes is an experienced and proven central defender. Okay he's more expensive than McAusland..... but so what? Innes was a relatively cheap signing!

Quote

Camara and Wyness?
Gilerao and Johnston?

I take it you're conceding these signings were all failures.

Every manager signs failures..... especially when they are hunting in the bargain basement. Gus has also made a number of good signings. What has this got to do with Gus' record on giving youth a chance?

On that subject though Wyness was signed as a squad player and did a decent job. He played in the 4 SPL games we won in a row - first time we'd done that in the top flight since the early 80s! Jim Hamilton was also a decent signing for example as well.

Reilly, Maxwell, Adam, Millen, Sutton, Mehmet, Brady, Thomson, Dorman, Gallacher, Ross, Miranda, Cuthbert, Howard, Carey. These signings have all been pretty decent.

Gus has the second lowest wage budget in the league, hardly any youth coming through and loses his best players for nothing / peanuts. What do you expect?

[Captain_Sensible]

btb, on 16 March 2010 - 19:36, said:

Barron and Smith were replaced by journeymen players at the first opportunity. Where is Smith now - 3rd choice and injured? Where would Barron be if GM hadn't made a total fuck-up of the LB situation? McGinn is the one guy to have made his debut under MacPherson who has gone on to better things - one guy in six years!

But he's the only one the youth system has brought through! He can't bring through players that don't exist, can he?

Smith isn't a good keeper IMO. Gus brought in Gallacher because we only had one fit keeper and frankly, IMO, Smith is rubbish anyway!

Quote

It's one of those what-if arguments but maybe if MacPherson had shown a bit more faith in the U-19 guys they wouldn't be languishing where they are or out of the game completely.

Do you really think that the only reason that Molloy, McCay & McKenna haven't gone on to great success is because Gus didn't give them more of a chance? Do you really think these guys were good enough?

Do you really think that Marc McAusland lost his place in the QoS team to Marvin Andrews and is now their 4th choice centre half because Gus didn't give him a game?

[Law Stud]

Div, on 16 March 2010 - 20:18, said:

It sure is one very soft kill he's going for isn't it

If you go to Ikea you'll notice that there are different grades of pillow. Cheap ones have hardly any substance, offer little support and they aren't very good for suffocating. Gilmour is clearly too cheap to buy a decent pillow....

[Captain_Sensible]

On the subject of the alleged declining attendances under the current BoD and Gus Macpherson:

Average home league attendance in the SPL since the start of 06/07 (excluding Old Firm fixtures)

06/07 - 09/10 - 4,616


Average home league attendance in 97/98 season before current BoD took over (excluding Morton fixtures):

97/98 - 2,713


Average home league attendance in 03/04 season before Gus became manager:

03/04 - 2,793


Average home league attendance in last 10 seasons in Premier Division (excluding Old Firm fixtures):

82/83 - 91/92 - 4,324


Average league attendance in selected seasons (excluding Old Firm fixtures)

83/84 - 2,983 - 6th in league (McAvennie, McDougall, Scanlon, et al)
84/95 - 4,048 - qualified for UEFA Cup
86/87 - 3,497 - won Scottish Cup, 7th in league
91/92 - 3,452 - last season in Premier Division

On the subject of the alleged cuts the BoD have implemented on the playing staff:

Wage bill

04/05 - £0.8m
05/06 - £1.0m
06/07 - £1.8m
07/08 - £2.2m
08/09 - £2.7m

Lists of recognised first team players on first team wages.

I've made some assumptions and ignored U19 squad fillers. I'm also ignoring Andy Millen as he's still on the staff although presumably he got paid a bit extra when he played. For players who left / arrived mid season I've given them a headcount of 0.5. The youngsters bit is complicated a bit by Barron & McGinn. I've assumed that McGinn came on to first team wages for season 07/08 and Barron towards end of season 07/08 (so he starts from 08/09). It gives a rough idea of squad numbers anyway....

05/06

Smith, Van Zanten, Broadfoot, McGowne, Reilly, Murray, Lappin, Kean, Reid, Corcoran, Maxwell, Potter, Mehmet, McGinty, Smith, Sutton, Adam, Anderson - 0.5, Bullock - 0.5

Total = 18

06/07

Smith, Van Zanten, Broadfoot, Potter, McGowne, Murray, Lappin, Brady, Kean, Sutton, Brittain, Corcoran, Mehmet, Bullock, Reid, Maxwell, Burke, Anderson, O'Donnell - 0.5, Malone - 0.5, Lawson 0.5.

Total = 19.5

07/08

Smith, Van Zanten, Reid, Mason, Haining, Potter, Murray, Brady, Mehmet, Kean, Corcoran, Brittain, Burke, Miranda, O'Donnell, Maxwell, Dargo, Howard, Malone - 0.5, Dorman - 0.5, Hamilton - 0.5.

Total = 19.5

08/09

Howard, Ross, Miranda, O'Donnell, Haining, Potter, Murray, Brady, Mehmet, Brighton, Tonet, Wyness, Mason, Cuthbert, Dorman, Hamilton, Robb, Dargo, Smith, McGinn, Camara - 0.5, Thomson - 0.5.

Total = 21

09/10

Gallacher, Ross, Barron, Potter, Mair, Innes, Murray, Thomson, Mehmet, Higdon, Dargo, Brighton, Brady, O'Donnell, Dorman, Robb, Smith, Howard, Johnston, McGinn - 0.5, Camara - 0.5, Wyness - 0.5, Carey - 0.5, Loy - 0.5.

Total = 21.5

Also worth looking at the squad numbers back in 84/85 the last time we qualified for the UEFA Cup:

Money, Wilson, Hamilton, Clarke, Fulton, Rooney, Fitzpatrick, McAvennie, Gallagher, Abercromby, Scanlon, Mackie, Cooper, McDowall, Stewart, Spiers, Godfrey - 0.5, Winnie - 0.5, Cameron - 0.5 (I've included these 2 as halves because they were 18 and part-time)..

Total = 17.5

[Captain_Sensible]

Law Stud, on 16 March 2010 - 20:28, said:

If you go to Ikea you'll notice that there are different grades of pillow. Cheap ones have hardly any substance, offer little support and they aren't very good for suffocating. Gilmour is clearly too cheap to buy a decent pillow....

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Now bearing in mind that the current BoD took over in 1998 when we were £3 million in debt, had a ground which was beginning to fall to pieces and were staring relegation to the Second Division in the face, this is what they have achieved:

1) Underwritten a share issue in 1998 which was largely ignored by the supporters to save the club from going under.

2) Underwritten a share issue in 1999 which was largely ignored by the supporters to build a new stand to allow us into the SPL.

3) Lent the club £650k to pay of Bill Barr and fund a planning application to turn Love Street into a supermarket.

4) Secured planning permission for a supermarket at Love Street against the recommendation of the planners and against the Local Plan.

5) Sold Love Street to Tesco for £12m.

6) Built a brand new stadium.

7) Cleared all the debts.

8 ) Built our own exclusive training ground, one of only 4 clubs in Scotland to have one.

9) Overseen a fourth successive season in the top flight for the first time in almost a quarter of a century.

10) Overseen us reaching our highest league finish in 20 years.

11) Overseen us reaching our first major final in 23 years and our first League Cup Final in 55 years.

12) Overseen best attendances in 30 years.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 20:34, said:

On the subject of the alleged declining attendances under the current BoD and Gus Macpherson:

Average home league attendance in the SPL since the start of 06/07 (excluding Old Firm fixtures)

06/07 - 09/10 - 4,616


Average home league attendance in 97/98 season before current BoD took over (excluding Morton fixtures):

97/98 - 2,713


Average home league attendance in 03/04 season before Gus became manager:

03/04 - 2,793


Average home league attendance in last 10 seasons in Premier Division (excluding Old Firm fixtures):

82/83 - 91/92 - 4,324


Average league attendance in selected seasons (excluding Old Firm fixtures)

83/84 - 2,983 - 6th in league (McAvennie, McDougall, Scanlon, et al)
84/95 - 4,048 - qualified for UEFA Cup
86/87 - 3,497 - won Scottish Cup, 7th in league
91/92 - 3,452 - last season in Premier Division

On the subject of the alleged cuts the BoD have implemented on the playing staff:

Wage bill

04/05 - £0.8m
05/06 - £1.0m
06/07 - £1.8m
07/08 - £2.2m
08/09 - £2.7m

Lists of recognised first team players on first team wages.

I've made some assumptions and ignored U19 squad fillers. I'm also ignoring Andy Millen as he's still on the staff although presumably he got paid a bit extra when he played. For players who left / arrived mid season I've given them a headcount of 0.5. The youngsters bit is complicated a bit by Barron & McGinn. I've assumed that McGinn came on to first team wages for season 07/08 and Barron towards end of season 07/08 (so he starts from 08/09). It gives a rough idea of squad numbers anyway....

05/06

Smith, Van Zanten, Broadfoot, McGowne, Reilly, Murray, Lappin, Kean, Reid, Corcoran, Maxwell, Potter, Mehmet, McGinty, Smith, Sutton, Adam, Anderson - 0.5, Bullock - 0.5

Total = 18

06/07

Smith, Van Zanten, Broadfoot, Potter, McGowne, Murray, Lappin, Brady, Kean, Sutton, Brittain, Corcoran, Mehmet, Bullock, Reid, Maxwell, Burke, Anderson, O'Donnell - 0.5, Malone - 0.5, Lawson 0.5.

Total = 19.5

07/08

Smith, Van Zanten, Reid, Mason, Haining, Potter, Murray, Brady, Mehmet, Kean, Corcoran, Brittain, Burke, Miranda, O'Donnell, Maxwell, Dargo, Howard, Malone - 0.5, Dorman - 0.5, Hamilton - 0.5.

Total = 19.5

08/09

Howard, Ross, Miranda, O'Donnell, Haining, Potter, Murray, Brady, Mehmet, Brighton, Tonet, Wyness, Mason, Cuthbert, Dorman, Hamilton, Robb, Dargo, Smith, McGinn, Camara - 0.5, Thomson - 0.5.

Total = 21

09/10

Gallacher, Ross, Barron, Potter, Mair, Innes, Murray, Thomson, Mehmet, Higdon, Dargo, Brighton, Brady, O'Donnell, Dorman, Robb, Smith, Howard, Johnston, McGinn - 0.5, Camara - 0.5, Wyness - 0.5, Carey - 0.5, Loy - 0.5.

Total = 21.5

Also worth looking at the squad numbers back in 84/85 the last time we qualified for the UEFA Cup:

Money, Wilson, Hamilton, Clarke, Fulton, Rooney, Fitzpatrick, McAvennie, Gallagher, Abercromby, Scanlon, Mackie, Cooper, McDowall, Stewart, Spiers, Godfrey - 0.5, Winnie - 0.5, Cameron - 0.5 (I've included these 2 as halves because they were 18 and part-time)..

Total = 17.5

Keep up the good work statto. Thats probably the most boring thing i've ever read on p&b.

This post has been edited by Bigmouth Strikes Again: 16 March 2010 - 20:41

[Law Stud]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 20:36, said:

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Now bearing in mind that the current BoD took over in 1998 when we were £3 million in debt, had a ground which was beginning to fall to pieces and were staring relegation to the Second Division in the face, this is what they have achieved:

1) Underwritten a share issue in 1998 which was largely ignored by the supporters to save the club from going under.

2) Underwritten a share issue in 1999 which was largely ignored by the supporters to build a new stand to allow us into the SPL.

3) Lent the club £650k to pay of Bill Barr and fund a planning application to turn Love Street into a supermarket.

4) Secured planning permission for a supermarket at Love Street against the recommendation of the planners and against the Local Plan.

5) Sold Love Street to Tesco for £12m.

6) Built a brand new stadium.

7) Cleared all the debts.

8 ) Built our own exclusive training ground, one of only 4 clubs in Scotland to have one.

9) Overseen a fourth successive season in the top flight for the first time in almost a quarter of a century.

10) Overseen us reaching our highest league finish in 20 years.

11) Overseen us reaching our first major final in 23 years and our first League Cup Final in 55 years.

12) Overseen best attendances in 30 years.

I'm not sure if I buy most of that Captain but even if I did look at the attitude amongst a large section of the support. Have St Mirren even come close to selling out their 14,000 allocation for the cup final? From where I sit, which is admittedly absolutely no where near Paisley or New St Mirren Park, it doesn't look good. Previously loyal fans are disaffected. Season ticket holders are saying they won't be renewing. Even you have claimed over the last few months that you've been staying away.

St Mirren certainly look in danger of getting to the stage where no-one cares whether they play or not, survive or not, or win or not.

[Colin M]

Law Stud, on 16 March 2010 - 20:43, said:

I'm not sure if I buy most of that

Which bits (remember: most of it) don't you buy? They're all facts

[btb]

Captain_Sensible, on 16 March 2010 - 20:19, said:

But he wasn't binned. Smith was chosen ahead of Bullock at the start of the following season and Bullock was the one who was eventually binned.

But Smith isn't even any good! He's a complete liability! I'm glad that Gus has signed Paul Gallacher!

But the point is that Gus was WILLING to give him a run in the team.



Okay, you are right, Barron was on the bench.

We had a left back last season, Franco Miranda. David Barron is not a natural right back so signing a recognised right back made sense. And David Barron isn't exactly Steve Clarke!

On the point of playing a right footer at left back, I;ll go back to the point I've made many times before. St. Mirren operated for most of the 80s without a left footed left back. The 87 cup winning side had a right footed left back, as did the 59 cup winning side. Steve Clarke spent his first season for St. Mirren at left back. Aberdeen won the league and European Cup Winners Cup with right footed Doug Rougvie at left back. Dundee United operated for the most successful 15 years of their history with a right footed left back in Maurice Malpas. Motherwell won the Scottish Cup with a right footed left back as captain, Tom Boyd. Boyd won more than 70 caps for Scotland as a right footed left back. Denis Irwin won a host of honours for Manchester United as a right footed left back. John Greig played many games for Rangers as a right footed left back, as did Danny McGrain.

Rant over!



How many games did McAusland start before he left? None! He's now 4th choice defender for a mid table First Division side - he's just not good enough!

Chris Innes is an experienced and proven central defender. Okay he's more expensive than McAusland..... but so what? Innes was a relatively cheap signing!



Every manager signs failures..... especially when they are hunting in the bargain basement. Gus has also made a number of good signings. What has this got to do with Gus' record on giving youth a chance?

On that subject though Wyness was signed as a squad player and did a decent job. He played in the 4 SPL games we won in a row - first time we'd done that in the top flight since the early 80s! Jim Hamilton was also a decent signing for example as well.

Reilly, Maxwell, Adam, Millen, Sutton, Mehmet, Brady, Thomson, Dorman, Gallacher, Ross, Miranda, Cuthbert, Howard, Carey. These signings have all been pretty decent.

Gus has the second lowest wage budget in the league, hardly any youth coming through and loses his best players for nothing / peanuts. What do you expect?

Smith was pretty much second choice from the moment Bullock arrived until Bullock fell out with MacPherson.

McAusland or Innes - you may be right but it all fits the pattern of GM not trusting young players.

Wyness was bought in a desperate attempt to rekindle his partnership with Dargo - December 2008 saves him from being in my all time worst Saints line up but that's as far as I'm willing to go. 3 goals in two seasons 'cos lets face it he got two seasons wages from us is not IMO a decent job.

I'd agree given budgets GM has had to operate with most of the guys you've listed were decent signings with the exception of Miranda who scored a few decent goals but was a liability in his primary role as a defender.

You can't absolve MacPherson of all responsibility for the lack of young players coming through, how much worse can our U-19 strikers be than Dargo 2 goals so far this season and none since since October.

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What do I expect, bottom half of the league most seasons, relegation dogfights and the odd good cup run 2005/06 & 06/07 GM exceeded my expectations since then just about acceptable. I still say that one success (McGinn) and one maybe (Barron) is not a good record for youth development since we reached the SPL.