[HibeeJibee]

Hibs draw today means a replay for us (and we were lucky to get that!!). So Hibs v Dundee Utd is off a week on Wednesday... Leaving Utd with:


Sat 20 Mar... Aberdeen (A)

Tue/Wed 23/4 Mar... No Game [Hibs involved in Scottish Cup] OR Dundee Utd v Rangers (A, Scottish Cup replay)

Sat 27 Mar... Motherwell (A)

Tue/Wed 31 Mar... Blank Date

Mon 5 Apr... v St Johnstone (A)

Tue/Wed 6/7 Apr... Blank Date

Sat/Sun 10/11 Apr... No Game [Rangers involved in Scottish Cup] OR Dundee Utd v ? (N, Scottish Cup SFs) ... also SPL splits

To Be Arranged... v Hibs (A), v Rangers (H)


So presumably Utd are going to end up playing Tue/Wed - Mon - Wed... i.e. 2 games in 3 days... possibly the midweek before a Scottish Cup SF?

Or will the SPL perhaps hold a pre-split game (Rangers or Hibs) over until after the split... and use one of the couple of midweeks available then?

Or if tomorrow's game ends up in a clear result - could SPL "crash re-arrange" Dundee Utd v Rangers, from April 4th onto Tue/Wed 23/24 March?

This post has been edited by HibeeJibee: 13 March 2010 - 17:25

[craigkillie]

HibeeJibee, on 13 March 2010 - 17:24, said:

Hibs draw today means a replay for us (and we were lucky to get that!!). So Hibs v Dundee Utd is off a week on Wednesday... Leaving Utd with:


Sat 20 Mar... Aberdeen (A)

Tue/Wed 23/4 Mar... No Game [Hibs involved in Scottish Cup] OR Dundee Utd v Rangers (A, Scottish Cup replay)

Sat 27 Mar... Motherwell (A)

Tue/Wed 31 Mar... Blank Date

Mon 5 Apr... v St Johnstone (A)

Tue/Wed 6/7 Apr... Blank Date

Sat/Sun 10/11 Apr... No Game [Rangers involved in Scottish Cup] OR Dundee Utd v ? (N, Scottish Cup SFs) ... also SPL splits

To Be Arranged... v Hibs (A), v Rangers (H)


So presumably Utd are going to end up playing Tue/Wed - Mon - Wed... i.e. 2 games in 3 days... possibly the midweek before a Scottish Cup SF?

Or will the SPL perhaps hold a pre-split game (Rangers or Hibs) over until after the split... and use one of the couple of midweeks available then?

Or if tomorrow's game ends up in a clear result - could SPL "crash re-arrange" Dundee Utd v Rangers, from April 4th onto Tue/Wed 23/24 March?

I can't see any problems in holding either game until after the split. United, Hibs and Rangers will all be comfortably in the top 6.

[HibeeJibee]

craigkillie, on 13 March 2010 - 17:26, said:

I can't see any problems in holding either game until after the split. United, Hibs and Rangers will all be comfortably in the top 6.

I suspect that's the most likely option. However there are only 3 midweeks after the split - one already allocated to R37 - so things getting tight.

[craigkillie]

HibeeJibee, on 13 March 2010 - 17:31, said:

I suspect that's the most likely option. However there are only 3 midweeks after the split - one already allocated to R37 - so things getting tight.

I suppose that is to be expected given the winter we had.

The main priority has to be getting all of St Johnstone's games in before the split. They'll be OK unless there's another postponement though.

[Szamo's_Ammo]

We need the season extended.

[HibeeJibee]

craigkillie, on 13 March 2010 - 17:39, said:

I suppose that is to be expected given the winter we had.

The main priority has to be getting all of St Johnstone's games in before the split. They'll be OK unless there's another postponement though.

It's fortunate the side they play on Scottish Cup SF day (Aberdeen) are out of the cup, and that there were able to play Falkirk on QF day today.

[RB-Scotland]

Szamo, on 13 March 2010 - 17:42, said:

We need the season extended.

That it took so many posts for someone to point this out makes this board the laughing stock of Europe.

[vlad is the man]

Bloody Burley and the SFA wanting time before that Norway game.

[Pull My Strings]

As I understand it, HJ, you're the no-can-do guy. I'm sure it'll work out fine just the same.




Edit: Aaaargh forgot to add, this really shows up winter football for the unworkable farce that it really is.

This post has been edited by Pull My Strings: 13 March 2010 - 22:01

[SaintSam]

The split is the most ridiculous thing in Scottish football. Please tell me they're going to abolish it?

[craigkillie]

SaintSam, on 13 March 2010 - 22:19, said:

The split is the most ridiculous thing in Scottish football. Please tell me they're going to abolish it?

What's so ridiculous about it?

I like it because it gives mid-table teams something to play for, and generally makes the relegation and title battles more exciting. Last season, the relegation spot went right to the wire, and almost every week the teams down there were in direct competition.

[HibeeJibee]

Pull My Strings, on 13 March 2010 - 21:59, said:

As I understand it, HJ, you're the no-can-do guy. I'm sure it'll work out fine just the same.

There is a great irony in suggesting that myself, and fixtures, are no-can-do... but nevertheless, you are quite right, things will all work out fine...

As regards the split - the choice is quite simple, 10-team SPL (36 games) or 12-team SPL (33 games + 5 games). And before anyone barges in to propose 16-teams or 18-teams - there is a seperate thread for that. Although even there, the 16-team protagonists already rely on a new-style split. Splits are becoming more and more popular across Europe, and will soon be used in 3 of the 4 nations of the United Kingdom. I've no issue with it as a logistical concept, and it also adds meaningful challenges to mid-table clubs. The split stands as one of the SPL's greatest successes.

[Drunken Hobo]

HibeeJibee, on 14 March 2010 - 00:15, said:

There is a great irony in suggesting that myself, and fixtures, are no-can-do... but nevertheless, you are quite right, things will all work out fine...

As regards the split - the choice is quite simple, 10-team SPL (36 games) or 12-team SPL (33 games + 5 games). And before anyone barges in to propose 16-teams or 18-teams - there is a seperate thread for that. Although even there, the 16-team protagonists already rely on a new-style split. Splits are becoming more and more popular across Europe, and will soon be used in 3 of the 4 nations of the United Kingdom. I've no issue with it as a logistical concept, and it also adds meaningful challenges to mid-table clubs. The split stands as one of the SPL's greatest successes.

Oh but sometimes the team in 7th can finish on a higher number of points than the 6th placed team. Isn't that just ridiculous? It's so confusing as well, it hurts my little head to look at a table where the 7th placed team has a higher number of points than 6th or even 5th!



The only down-side to the split is you might get a team like Motherwell last year who had too many points to go down yet were trapped in the bottom 6, so essentially had absolutey nothing to play for. Of course you get games like this in most larger leagues, you can bet that Blackburn, Stoke and Fulham will have sod all to play for in the final 5 games of the EPL, with Bolton, Sunderland and Wigan in a similar situation in their final 3 or 4 games

[HibeeJibee]

Drunken Hobo, on 14 March 2010 - 00:23, said:

Oh but sometimes the team in 7th can finish on a higher number of points than the 6th placed team. Isn't that just ridiculous? It's so confusing as well, it hurts my little head to look at a table where the 7th placed team has a higher number of points than 6th or even 5th!

The only down-side to the split is you might get a team like Motherwell last year who had too many points to go down yet were trapped in the bottom 6, so essentially had absolutey nothing to play for. Of course you get games like this in most larger leagues, you can bet that Blackburn, Stoke and Fulham will have sod all to play for in the final 5 games of the EPL, with Bolton, Sunderland and Wigan in a similar situation in their final 3 or 4 games

Well of course: but if it had been a 10-team SPL with no split, or if it had stopped at R33, then they'd still have had nothing to play for in the last few rounds. The split is a prudent and pragmatic solution to a problem, adds value and excitement to the mid-table, and is relatively simple. And as I said: leagues across Europe are mimicking it (with a variety of different formats) in ever-increasing numbers - the SPL was in the vanguard!!

[Tamdunk]

I'm a big fan of the split, was a little disappointing last year when we missed out and left the remaining games worthless for us, but at the same time, we were busy trying not to get booked so we could make Europe again XD More worried about us making tackles than teams attacking us lol.

[MattBairn]

SaintSam, on 13 March 2010 - 22:19, said:

The split is the most ridiculous thing in Scottish football.

No. Its not.

[Willie Gray Ate My Hamster]

MattBairn, on 14 March 2010 - 10:23, said:

No. Its not.

Yep far worse things in Scottish football.

Playing teams at least 4 times a season is far worse!!!

[vlad is the man]

I don't see what is wrong with teams having nothing to play for. They were too good for relegation or not good enough for the upper echelons.

It has happened since football began. I don't see the need to try and get every single team to have something to play for at the end of the season. However I do see the need for a relgation play-off plus possibly a European play-off when we get more spots back.

[GAD]

SaintSam, on 13 March 2010 - 22:19, said:

The split is the most ridiculous thing in Scottish football. Please tell me they're going to abolish it?

It would be stupid if they did. The split is one of the best things about scottish football. I love the high pressure cut throat fixtures after the split, especially in the relegation half. It's exciting and a really good idea. It would be daft to ditch it.

[False Light]

 

HibeeJibee, on 13 March 2010 - 17:24, said:

So presumably Utd are going to end up playing Tue/Wed - Mon - Wed... i.e. 2 games in 3 days... possibly the midweek before a Scottish Cup SF?

Tue - Fri - Mon sounds more sensible. 


Anyway, one of the games will probably be played after the split, as it's by far the most sensible option. 

[buddie06smfc]

craigkillie, on 13 March 2010 - 22:24, said:

What's so ridiculous about it?

I like it because it gives mid-table teams something to play for, and generally makes the relegation and title battles more exciting. Last season, the relegation spot went right to the wire, and almost every week the teams down there were in direct competition.

What if, and this could happen, it was very tight going in to the split say 3 or 4 points between 3rd and 7th. By the end of the split 7th have more points than those in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. They are denied a spot in Europe because of this and the club will also, miss out on a lot more cash from the SPL, and revenue from being in Europe. Im only saying this because it did happen to me in Football Manager but it could quite easily happen in real life.

[Skyline Drifter]

craigkillie, on 13 March 2010 - 22:24, said:

What's so ridiculous about it?

I like it because it gives mid-table teams something to play for, and generally makes the relegation and title battles more exciting. Last season, the relegation spot went right to the wire, and almost every week the teams down there were in direct competition.

HibeeJibee, on 14 March 2010 - 00:31, said:

Well of course: but if it had been a 10-team SPL with no split, or if it had stopped at R33, then they'd still have had nothing to play for in the last few rounds. The split is a prudent and pragmatic solution to a problem, adds value and excitement to the mid-table, and is relatively simple. And as I said: leagues across Europe are mimicking it (with a variety of different formats) in ever-increasing numbers - the SPL was in the vanguard!!

What's slightly "ridiculous" or more accurately inconvenient about it is the fact that it to an extent necessitates all games in hand being sorted out by mid-April so that the split can actually be done. It shouldn't matter much because SPL pitch protection rules should mean that isn't a massive problem any year yet we've seen this year it's verging on it. You can get a work around as suggested on this thread of course by playing a game which definitely doesn't affect the split afterward but it's still a bit of a pest. As is not knowing the fixtures for the last five weeks of the season until immediately before. (yes I know junior clubs etc have that situation all the time but this isn't the juniors and when hospitality days and things are being planned in advance it's a pain in the backside).

Of course, there are plenty of plusses too and I'm not overly bothered one way or the other about the "split". Certainly the general annoyance that the team in 7th ends up with more points than the team in 6th is a ridiculous objection. If you can't follow why that is or what it means you are probably too stupid to be let out alone anyway.

It doesn't affect me as a non-SPL fan anyway but I don't think we should pretend that it doesn't have its faults.

buddie06smfc, on 14 March 2010 - 14:53, said:

What if, and this could happen, it was very tight going in to the split say 3 or 4 points between 3rd and 7th. By the end of the split 7th have more points than those in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. They are denied a spot in Europe because of this and the club will also, miss out on a lot more cash from the SPL, and revenue from being in Europe. Im only saying this because it did happen to me in Football Manager but it could quite easily happen in real life.

Oh dear. The prospect of a bottom half team being "denied" a place in Europe despite getting more points ultimately than a top half team is appalling isn't it? You do realise the reason that might happen is because for the last five games the team in 7th is playing a standard of opponent considerably lower than the average standard faced by the team in 6th. I'm actually fairly surprised it doesn't happen virtually every season. I don't see why it's confusing or any remote reason why that handicaps the team in 7th. They had every opportunity to qualify for Europe by getting themselves into the top six pre split in the first place.

[Steve McQueen]

craigkillie, on 13 March 2010 - 17:39, said:

I suppose that is to be expected given the winter we had.

The main priority has to be getting all of St Johnstone's games in before the split. They'll be OK unless there's another postponement though.

We'll only have 1 game extra after this midweek.

Suggestion was that our game with Dundee Utd may be moved back to the sat/sun if this happened.

This post has been edited by Steve McQueen: 14 March 2010 - 16:34

[Fife Saint]

Skyline Drifter, on 14 March 2010 - 15:23, said:

Of course, there are plenty of plusses too and I'm not overly bothered one way or the other about the "split". Certainly the general annoyance that the team in 7th ends up with more points than the team in 6th is a ridiculous objection. If you can't follow why that is or what it means you are probably too stupid to be let out alone anyway.

I don't see why people get so hung up about that either.

[HibeeJibee]

vlad is the man, on 14 March 2010 - 13:35, said:

I don't see what is wrong with teams having nothing to play for. They were too good for relegation or not good enough for the upper echelons.

It has happened since football began. I don't see the need to try and get every single team to have something to play for at the end of the season. However I do see the need for a relgation play-off plus possibly a European play-off when we get more spots back.

True - but it helps out financially... and keeps interest in the game as much as possible (at a time when La Liga, EPL etc. are just a button press away). But remember it wasn't invented as a deliberate ploy to do that, it's a side effect: it was invented as a solution to having a 12-team SPL.

I also agree with you on both play-off counts... once we're back to 5 places I'd like to see a Europa League play-off (single-leg SFs: 4th v 7th + 5th v 6th / single-leg final at neutral venue). It would also give the team finishing "top of the bottom 6" something to play for. I'd also like to see play-offs for promotion-relegation... in the form of: SFL 3rd v SFL 4th > winner away to SFL 2nd > winner v SPL 11th in a neutral venue single tie.

No-one denies the split has vagaries and some logistical issue, but they are all minor and/or generally rare... I think it's a very useful innovation. All this talk of "7th place having more than 6th", "what is 7th has enough points for Europe" etc. is silly. There was a split... Imagine that the teams are now playing in entirely seperate sections, not a league table with a heavier line across the middle. And 7th are playing the weaker clubs too.

False Light, on 14 March 2010 - 14:35, said:

Tue - Fri - Mon sounds more sensible.

It would be, were Friday night games possible. A new set of criteria has again been issued by ACPOS, late last year, further limiting the ability of organisations to hold sporting events on Friday nights. (I understand this will severely limit the ability of even occasional SFL games to be played on Fridays, and may also impact on Heineken Cup ties... which apparently require greater policing that Celtic League, perhaps due to their larger crowds and/or bigger away supports?... the Junior FA isn't even able to play SFs on Fridays now). That said, Good Friday is a public holiday here.