[Strathman]

TV this morning says that Big Sandy Lyle has accused Monty of cheating at the Indonesian Open four years ago. I have seen the footage before and it looked bad. Funnily enough I looked on you tube today and could not find it. It is very rare for someone to say something like this publicly.

There have been a few cases over the years I can remember with the pros.

The worst offender was undoubtedly David Robertson from Dunbar who got banned for twenty years i think for repeatedly moving his marker nearer the hole during Open qualifying.

Greg Norman called Mark McCumber a cheat and Mark O'Meara was called "marker nearer" after an incident at the French Open. I think Jarmo Sandelin publicly accused him.

There has been an amazing silence after the Kenny Perry incident which is on you tube. If a youngster had done what he did he would have been hung out to dry.

Everyone has a story at their own club of someone who cheats but for all the people who play it is an amazingly low number who knowingly break the rules.

It will be interesting to see how the press reacts to the Lyle accusation. I have a feeling they will shoot the messenger.

[Skyline Drifter]

What is the "Kenny Perry incident"? I just looked on You Tube and couldn't see anything obvious. Got a link?

The back page of The Sun goes for it in a big way today incidentally. Not the most advisable thing for Lyle to have said but it does seem to have rather been blown way out of proportion.

[Shengus Khan]

Strathman, on Jul 14 2009, 08:56, said:

There has been an amazing silence after the Kenny Perry incident which is on you tube. If a youngster had done what he did he would have been hung out to dry.

That's the only incident I've seen footage of and it doesn't look good on Perry's part. I definitely think he was at it.

Me and my mates call Vijay Singh "The Cheat" but that's to do with stories we've heard rather than concrete evidence. I think he was reknowned for having a magic pencil when he was first on the tour.

I remember me and a mate were playing for our club in a Junior Interclub match against Arbroath and one of their guys was blatantly cheating. He would be slicing the ball into the bushes and it would suddenly appear about 50 yards further up on the fairway. He was constantly at it. It got to the stage that his playing partner was getting so pissed off with him that on the 12th he picked his ball up and threw it in the field

There's also a couple of guys at my club who've got a terrible reputation for cheating but it's not really for me to say. Jupe1407 on here will probably know a bit more than I do.

This post has been edited by Shengus Khan: 14 July 2009 - 08:21

[Shengus Khan]

Skyline Drifter, on Jul 14 2009, 09:16, said:

What is the "Kenny Perry incident"? I just looked on You Tube and couldn't see anything obvious. Got a link?

Not got a link but i'll try to explain the situation. Perry is through the back of the green into the thick rough. He then starts taking practise swings that chop out the grass around his ball in order to improve his lie. It doesn't look good at all.

[H_B]

Shengus Khan, on Jul 14 2009, 09:17, said:

Me and my mates call Vijay Singh "The Cheat" but that's to do with stories we've heard rather than concrete evidence.

Not so. Singh was actually banned for cheating as a young pro.

He deliberately changed a score on a hole I believe to make the cut. He is indeed a cheat.

[H_B]

Richie Ramsay was involved in a bit of dodginess a few weeks ago as well. Something about using his club to improve his lie on a wet fairway. Basically the TV pictures were inconclusive, though they looked bad, so Paramour asked him whether he wanted to take a penalty or not, and he said no, he hadn't done anything wrong. Several of the ex-pros said they thought he should have taken the penalty.

Not on the cheating front, but I remember having a bet on an event a few years ago, where my idiot golfer hit the wrong ball (his playing partner's) from the middle of the fairway. 2 shot penalty I think and he went to pieces afterwards. Clown

[Shengus Khan]

H_B, on Jul 14 2009, 09:29, said:

Richie Ramsay was involved in a bit of dodginess a few weeks ago as well. Something about using his club to improve his lie on a wet fairway. Basically the TV pictures were inconclusive, though they looked bad, so Paramour asked him whether he wanted to take a penalty or not, and he said no, he hadn't done anything wrong. Several of the ex-pros said they thought he should have taken the penalty.

That was at the Welsh Open. I don't think he gained an advantage from it and the whole incident clearly affected him. I actually felt a bit sorry for him.

What about Ian Woosnam's caddy at The Open at Lytham? Going out with 15 clubs in the bag

This post has been edited by Shengus Khan: 14 July 2009 - 08:38

[H_B]

Shengus Khan, on Jul 14 2009, 09:37, said:

That was at the Welsh Open. I don't think he gained an advantage from it and the whole incident clearly affected him. I actually felt a bit sorry for him.

I don't know enough about golf to know one way or the other. I thought it was quite revealing that Howard Clark and the others were pretty slow to defend him though.

Quote

What about Ian Woosnam's caddy at The Open at Lytham? Going out with 15 clubs in the bag

That was hilarious, as I can't stand Woosnam

[Skyline Drifter]

Shengus Khan, on Jul 14 2009, 09:37, said:

What about Ian Woosnam's caddy at The Open at Lytham? Going out with 15 clubs in the bag

That's idiocy, it's not cheating.

[StewartyMac]

Sandy Lyle is a cock.

That is all.

[H_B]

I think you mean Montgomerie, not Lyle.

[craigkillie]

H_B, on Jul 14 2009, 19:18, said:

I think you mean Montgomerie, not Lyle.

Surely it's not a mutually exclusive selection.

[Strathman]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Bv9OeVK6w88

The Kenny Perry link.

I see Sandy has apologised. I think he should have just left it. He made a good point now he just looks daft.

[jupe1407]

Shengus Khan, on Jul 14 2009, 09:17, said:

That's the only incident I've seen footage of and it doesn't look good on Perry's part. I definitely think he was at it.

Me and my mates call Vijay Singh "The Cheat" but that's to do with stories we've heard rather than concrete evidence. I think he was reknowned for having a magic pencil when he was first on the tour.

I remember me and a mate were playing for our club in a Junior Interclub match against Arbroath and one of their guys was blatantly cheating. He would be slicing the ball into the bushes and it would suddenly appear about 50 yards further up on the fairway. He was constantly at it. It got to the stage that his playing partner was getting so pissed off with him that on the 12th he picked his ball up and threw it in the field

There's also a couple of guys at my club who've got a terrible reputation for cheating but it's not really for me to say. Jupe1407 on here will probably know a bit more than I do.

I know exactly of whom you speak and i've had a few experiences with him.

The Arbroath matches were hilarious. I'm sure i remember one alleged incident where one of their players threatened to punch someone's puss if he holed a hole-winning putt.

I should maybe stop talking about stupidity at Arbroath matches actually

[lichtie23]

Lyle should just f**k off.

Absolute knob head of a man. He is just upset cause Monty got the Ryder Cup captaincy.

[Skyline Drifter]

lichtie23, on Jul 15 2009, 01:57, said:

Lyle should just f**k off.

Absolute knob head of a man. He is just upset cause Monty got the Ryder Cup captaincy.

No shit? Really?

Is that why he said it?

To be fair he has a point in my opinion. Well generally anyway, I wouldn't offer a view as to whether Monty actually cheated and I don't think it's especially relevant. Lyle, when asked if he thought his controversial walk off the Open course had been a factor said (probably shouldn't have brought it up but he's still right) that Monty's cheating storm didn't seem to have been a factor in his selection so he didn't see why it should.

Lyle is one of our greats from the 80's. He, Faldo, Ballesteros, Langer and Woosnam were all Europe's "big" guns back then. The others have all been captain despite in Faldo's case a fair degree of unpopularity with the players and a residency in the States that meant he was hardly best placed for the job. So has Sam Torrance who peaked somewhat later than Lyle and Mark James who was far less popular in the golfing fraternity than Lyle over the years. Monty's election is surprisngly early considering he was still playing to a very high level so recently (though the same might be said of Langer).

Lyle was the obvious choice for captain next time out and he should have got it for me. Monty should have been behind him in the queue. It's a massive, and for me unfair, snub of Lyle. Sure, it doesn't show great decorum for him to have come out and said what he did and he's sure burned all bridges now, but he has a point and I have some sympathy.

[Clyde4life]

Sandy Lyle is my golfing hero, closely followed by Monty. The problem Lyle has is that he is not articulate. It actually makes him a popular fellow pro. At every Masters, at the past winners meal, Lyle cracks up the likes of Mickelson, Woods and Couples with his plain talking and joking. Having seen the Malayasian "incident" at the time, and being a novice golfer, who loves the game, I was amazed that Monty had anything to do with re-placing the ball. Surely that should have been an officials or even a caddies job! The countours of the bunker were identical, from where his ball should have been placed and where it ended up. In my opinion there was no way he improved his lie.

The timing of this just sucks, lets be honest the only reason Lyle has said these things is because he was asked. There should have been no need for Lyle to do anything press related this week, he isnt going to win, he's not going to be in contention, this was the british pres at its finet, engineering a story, and most of it is to belittle Monty.

Having known Gary Orr's caddy some time now, I know how popular both players are with their fellow pro's, but do you not get the feeling Monty is on a hiding to nothing these days with the Ryder Cup Captain, and a lot of the press will actually be hoping he loses, just to rub it in.

[celtic_glasgow]

H_B, on Jul 14 2009, 09:43, said:

I don't know enough about golf to know one way or the other. I thought it was quite revealing that Howard Clark and the others were pretty slow to defend him though.




That was hilarious, as I can't stand Woosnam

Richie didn't do anything wrong in my opinion. He was taking a casual water drop and stepped on the area he was going to drop the ball to check it wasn't also casual water. He was then later told it was an infringement and he could have been improving his lie, now I play golf to a decent standard and I have lost count of the amount of times I, or my playing partners have done this, I had no idea there was a ruling against it? Richie though was obviously affected and shot his load final round.

And also he picked up a one stroke penalty during the same round for taking a drop for casual water wrongly. Apparently you have to mark your area you will drop the ball with a tee, again a rule I wasn't aware off and was given a one stroke penalty for failing to do so. These kind of rules really make me despise golf.

[H Wragg]

Skyline Drifter, on Jul 15 2009, 09:04, said:

Sure, it doesn't show great decorum for him to have come out and said what he did and he's sure burned all bridges now, but he has a point and I have some sympathy.

Any sympathy from me has gone after his latest outbursts (plural. He was mouthing off about not getting the captaincy the other day), and that's coming from someone who can't stand Momtgomerie, the whingeing bastard.

A couple of weans, really.

[lichtie23]

Will this latest outburst not dent his chances of captaining in the future even more?

[jupe1407]

celtic_glasgow, on Jul 15 2009, 09:23, said:

Richie didn't do anything wrong in my opinion. He was taking a casual water drop and stepped on the area he was going to drop the ball to check it wasn't also casual water. He was then later told it was an infringement and he could have been improving his lie, now I play golf to a decent standard and I have lost count of the amount of times I, or my playing partners have done this, I had no idea there was a ruling against it? Richie though was obviously affected and shot his load final round.

And also he picked up a one stroke penalty during the same round for taking a drop for casual water wrongly. Apparently you have to mark your area you will drop the ball with a tee, again a rule I wasn't aware off and was given a one stroke penalty for failing to do so. These kind of rules really make me despise golf.

I wasn't aware of those either. I've done the same thing to check for casual water more time than i care to remember.

I like Ramsay as a player, and watching him win the US Amateur at Hazeltine was superb. I certainly don't think for a minute he's cheated given what's been described.

[seamus]

Sandy Lyle has done something that Montgomerie will never do and thats win a Major.

I am glad that he has came out and just said what everyone is thinking.For Montgomirie to come out and say its ruined his preparations for the Open is just another excuse from him not winning.

Montgomeri is a master moaner who treats the fans like shit and he cheated at Jakarta.He was such a nice chap donating that money.Aye right

He would do well to look at Sam Torrance for guidance on etiquette and I dont understand why Sandy Lyle is now being vilified for saying what everyone knew.

This post has been edited by seamus: 15 July 2009 - 20:14

[mid-table]

I think they (Lyle and Montgomerie) are as bad as each other.
Despite growing up int he 80s / 90s, I never looked up to either of them, and I didn't think of either of them as Scottish role models. It was always guys like Torrance and Barclay Howard that I admired.

[StewartyMac]

seamus, on Jul 15 2009, 21:13, said:

Sandy Lyle has done something that Montgomerie will never do and thats win a Major.

So have Paul Lawrie, Ian Baker-Finch, Ben Curtis, Zach Johnson, Wayne Grady, and Todd Hamilton.

Winning a major in golf doesn't automatically equate to you being a great player.

Winning 8 European Order of Merit titles is perhaps more of a barometer.

[Yoss]

StewartyMac, on Jul 15 2009, 22:06, said:

So have Paul Lawrie, Ian Baker-Finch, Ben Curtis, Zach Johnson, Wayne Grady, and Todd Hamilton.

Winning a major in golf doesn't automatically equate to you being a great player.

Sandy Lyle did something none of those players have done and won another one.