[The Arch]

Jim Pansy, on Jun 28 2009, 12:16, said:

I'm assuming it was in the second or third tests of the last tour, but Alan Tait certainly did. How many tours ago was that?

That was the last South African tour in 1997.

I think Tom Smith was a starter in Australia in 2001, but he was born in England.

[Swarley]

Gavin Hastings?

[Radford]

Alan Tait was missing for the final test in 1997, so it's Rob Wainwright. Twelve years since a Scottish-born player has started for the Lions in a test. What a sad reflection on our game. In the three tours since, 120 test jerseys have been up for grabs and not one of them filled by a Scottish-born player.

I guess with Ross Ford having four years on Rees (five on Mears) and having been arguably the favourite for the jersey at the turn of the year, he might get a chance next week? I'd expect Phillips to play again at scrum-half though and even if he doesn't, Ellis will get the nod. Who really cares about Nathan Hines either?

[Fuctifano]

Good consolation win for the Lions, 28-9 and 3 tries to zero. Things went for them today that didn't in the first two tests like breaks of the ball and tight refereeing decisions. Saffers lost the plot towards the end a bit as well.

3 cracking matches, I wish it was best of 5 but the players have probably had enough.

[banana]

Decent performance against a completely disinterested South Africa. I loved the commentator trying to claim some kind of tour victory by stating that, "The Lions outscored the Springboks over the three tests"

[Swarley]

Thought Ross Ford played well. Anyone thinking of coming across to Oz in 2013?

[The Arch]

Who would people have as being the main winners and losers on the tour, in a British and Irish Lions sense?

I'd have:

Winners -

Mike Philips - If you take out the first half of the first test, he was excellent in all 3 tests. Some still think he's not at Dwayne Peel's level, but he's good in an attacking and defensive sense, and probably overshadowed FDP, who's generally seen as the world's best scrumhalf.

Jamie Roberts - Wasn't seen as an obvious starter, but was excellent in the early games, and formed a great pairing with BOD. Probably going back home as one of the world's best centres.

Luke Kearney - Replaced Lee Byrne in the first test, and despite Bryne's reputation as one of the best in the world, Kearney came in and looked an even better player than Byrne.

Losers -

Shane Williams - Saved face with two tries in the last match, but generally a poor tour for him, and he's struggled to make any real impact in both the Lions' tours he's been on, despite being a former world player of the year

Phil Vickery - He will now always be remembered for that battering he received from "The Beast" in the first test, and has lost nearly all his credibility. Considering Euan Murray had the better of "The Beast", the last time Scotland played South Africa, Vickery probably shouldn't have even started in the first place

Scotland - Really offered nothing to the squad, in a playing sense. We really require at least 6-7 players in the next tour, in order to save face.

[Fuctifano]

The Arch, on Jul 5 2009, 11:14, said:

Who would people have as being the main winners and losers on the tour, in a British and Irish Lions sense?

I'd have:

Winners -

Mike Philips - If you take out the first half of the first test, he was excellent in all 3 tests. Some still think he's not at Dwayne Peel's level, but he's good in an attacking and defensive sense, and probably overshadowed FDP, who's generally seen as the world's best scrumhalf.

Jamie Roberts - Wasn't seen as an obvious starter, but was excellent in the early games, and formed a great pairing with BOD. Probably going back home as one of the world's best centres.

Luke Kearney - Replaced Lee Byrne in the first test, and despite Bryne's reputation as one of the best in the world, Kearney came in and looked an even better player than Byrne.

Losers -

Shane Williams - Saved face with two tries in the last match, but generally a poor tour for him, and he's struggled to make any real impact in both the Lions' tours he's been on, despite being a former world player of the year

Phil Vickery - He will now always be remembered for that battering he received from "The Beast" in the first test, and has lost nearly all his credibility. Considering Euan Murray had the better of "The Beast", the last time Scotland played South Africa, Vickery probably shouldn't have even started in the first place

Scotland - Really offered nothing to the squad, in a playing sense. We really require at least 6-7 players in the next tour, in order to save face.

His brother Rob was pretty good too.

To deal with Scotland, I don't follow rugby below the Warriors level, hopefully there's boys playing now at domestic level who are about 21-22 ready to break through, as apart from the Evans brothers, John Barclay, and maybe Ruraidh Jackson there's no-one under 25 who looks good in the Magners League at the moment. 4 years is a long time, mind you.

Winners-

Can't disagree with Phillips Roberts, and Kearney. Would add Bowe although it didn't really happen for him in the tests. Ireland's team is going to be incredibly strong over the next couple of years (O'Leary, Sexton, Fitzgerald, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney as a backline for example)

Losers-

O'Connell (he wasn't very good)
Vickery (probably cost the 1st test)
Mears (see Vickery)
O'Gara (probably cost the 2nd test)
Blair- holocaust in opening tour game relegated him to midweek sub duty for the rest of the tour when 8 or 9 months ago he would have been favourite to start the test. With Cusiter coming back to Glasgow and getting more game time he could even be under pressure for his Scotland place next year.

All the players that would have started but for injury (Flannery, Murray, Ferris, Byrne)

Williams (S) and Monye probably redeemed themselves in the last match, into the "neither winners nor losers category".

This post has been edited by Fuctifano: 05 July 2009 - 10:37

[central staggie]

Fuctifano, on Jul 5 2009, 11:36, said:

To deal with Scotland, I don't follow rugby below the Warriors level, hopefully there's boys playing now at domestic level who are about 21-22 ready to break through, as apart from the Evans brothers, John Barclay, and maybe Ruraidh Jackson there's no-one under 25 who looks good in the Magners League at the moment. 4 years is a long time, mind you.

You obviously don't watch Edinburgh at all then, because there are a few players comming through who you would expect to be pushing for an international place sooner rather that later. Notably, Ben Cairns, Alan MacDonald, David Callum and Nick De Luca are the same age as Max Evans, plus a few promising players playing for Scotland 7's/U20's ect. Scotland's problem is not production of players with talent, it's keeping them involved with rugby and turning that talent into class. How often do you hear the phrase 'turning potential into points' branded with Scotland? Too often. The whole set up needs to be revamped from top to bottom.

[Fuctifano]

central staggie, on Jul 7 2009, 12:26, said:

You obviously don't watch Edinburgh at all then, because there are a few players comming through who you would expect to be pushing for an international place sooner rather that later. Notably, Ben Cairns, Alan MacDonald, David Callum and Nick De Luca are the same age as Max Evans, plus a few promising players playing for Scotland 7's/U20's ect. Scotland's problem is not production of players with talent, it's keeping them involved with rugby and turning that talent into class. How often do you hear the phrase 'turning potential into points' branded with Scotland? Too often. The whole set up needs to be revamped from top to bottom.

I don't watch as much of Edinburgh as Glasgow, and I have to hold my hands up and say I've not heard much of the middle two. I also thought Cairns was older than 23, he is a decent player. De Luca is bobbins though. It is quite worrying how much Scotland has been left behind since professionalism, especially compared to Wales and Ireland.